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Posted by: MCheuk Mon, 13 Nov 2006 2:27 pm

Dear veterans,

Originally I had pebbles & plants in my tank for visual appeasement (see attached picture). However, after two months, I found that the pebbles retained a lot of poop and debris. I also discovered baby snails developing (which could be a good / bad sign, depending on the person).

I made 20% water changes per week, but noted some of my ranchus developing red sores on the bodies and blood veins in their fins recently (Water temp was 26C. The tank was running a week before any fish were added) Therefore, I assumed the water quality was inferior. I decided to revamp the tank and it is now a bare tank. The pebbles and plants made the tank look nice, but it created water issues.

Have many of you experienced this?
For goldfish/ranchus - is the best suggestion to have a bare tank?

Thank you.

Posted by: The Matrix Mon, 13 Nov 2006 4:21 pm

bare tank remove all these problems. but 20% water change is way too little. How abt checking yr water parameters ? yr nitrates should be sky high.

pebbles is okay for visual purpose but maintaining it will be a headache. U got to do gravel cleaning (suction) during weekly water change. Can go to your local fish shop to look for those meant for such purpose. Or u can custom make one with those 500ml plastic soft drink bottle. Got $$$ can buy those electric powered gravel cleaner.

snails usually from the plants u put into the tank. In future, try to keep the plants in another small tank for a month or so before placing into the main tank. Once u detect snails or other pests, u can still clean the plants and kill the snails or pests relatively easy. Right now, u got to dose the tanks with anti-snail copper solution which might destroy the entire tank system.

As long as u can control the pest problem, having a gravel and decorated tank will beautify the fish greatly.

Posted by: CP Mon, 13 Nov 2006 6:15 pm

Pretty nice setup you have there, and pretty nice ranchus too.

Here in RG we always recommend bare tanks, cos its much easier to maintain.Of course, it is not aesthetically as pleasing.

As mentioned by Matrix, 20% weekly change is too little.Pls check your nitrate levels.The stocking level now looks OK, but that is the max. number of fishes of this size that you can keep.

Posted by: MCheuk Tue, 14 Nov 2006 9:50 am

Thanks for the advice. I did check the water weekly and the indicator didn't say off the charts with the nitrate. Anywars, with the bare tank now, let's hope this problem is easier handled.

I was informed that gravel cleaning may release pockets of toxic water so it would be best to remove the water from the top. Please let me know if I am misinformed as I would like to place the gravel back in! btw - I feed my ranchus sinking pellets (saki hikari). The key problem was that these pellets would get caught in places where the ranchus cannot reach, and since these pellets are small, I couldn't always find them. As result I think this contributed to the water being more contaminated.

(My ranchus love the saki hikari. I have noted the pooped is more impact.)

Thanks for the wisdom on the plants. Even though the ranchus like to nibble on the leaves, I think I'll stay away from plants because rotten leaves contribute to the contanimation of water. I did try the anti-snail solution but think that hastened the water problem (even though I changed a 30% of the water after each application).

The tank is bare now, but with the experience, I may reconsider using gravel again. It really makes the bank aesthetically better!

Posted by: MCheuk Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:06 am

CP - thanks. I really enjoyed watching the tanks in the evenings. It's rather different now that it's bare!

I had the dealer/sales guy search for specific ranchus for me (from China). I wanted AA and below SVR (specific colors too). He was able to locate quite a few and then I selected these ones. Wierd thing is the black ranchu eventually started going orange! Initially I fed them a feed which promoted redness, so once that color transformation started, I switched to Saki Hikari. But it's too late, my fish is 85% orange now!

The dealer offered to take him back, but I really like the fish's character. Always approached me, smart, active and responsive. So I'm going to keep him. Although he's spotty now, I don't mind. Let's see if I can change him back to black (via food, lighting, water temp etc.). Will keep you guys posted.

Posted by: The Matrix Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:14 am

hope yr experience will bring more knowledge to RG as well.

My tank is also with gravel and plants except the setup too me 2 mths to complete. I dun use small sand based pebble, but I like to use glass or clear plastic marbles. That add shine to the tank. Also, much easier to clean compare to sandy base. Can always try larger rocks, plastic plants and even golf balls ... hahahaha some of the RG people will know what I meant. Nothing stops u from being creative.

Yes, cleaning the sand base will release some form of toxic. Actually pretty toxic. I remove my fish before changing water and run for a while before putting them back.

Plants also need nutrients. U need to feed the plants as well. Leave usually turn yellow before rot ... probably lack of magnesium, I think. Erh ... this one must ask our plant expert Laserguy liao.

anyway u really have very good chinese ranchu.

Posted by: CP Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:45 pm

Here is another discussion on gravel tank, belonging to gohks:

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3174&st=0

Posted by: chochiss Fri, 17 Nov 2006 9:26 pm

dear mcheuk,

any update for to share with us?

Tung Hoi ranchus??

Posted by: The Matrix Mon, 20 Nov 2006 3:33 am

dun look like tung hoi ranchu leh ... more like fuzhou lanshou.

Posted by: MCheuk Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:13 pm

Wow, you guys are professionals. I honestly don't know whether the ranchus are tung hoi or fuzhou. Next time I'm at the fish shop, I'll be sure to ask!

btw - Matrix, how can you tell where the fish come from?

Latest update on the tank is that I am seriously reconsidering putting the stones back in. But no plants. I am resisting... as per the advice of the elder advisers.

Plus, two of my ranchus recently developed 'pimples' on their wens. It was the HITH symptom, so I've isolated the two ranchus for the time being and going to research this site for the best remedy.

Later...

Posted by: The Matrix Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:19 pm

put back the stones slowly and learn how to maintain it. of course, if things dun go well, just remove again.

i happened to see more fishes only. not that i can tell where they came from. certain area or farms breed different line of fish.

Posted by: MCheuk Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:58 am

Just checked - my ranchus are from Dong zhou. They have several Dong Hoi ranchus, quite nice and premium price. These are the two preferred and larger farms for HK dealers to purchase from.

Posted by: chochiss Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:53 am

Tung Hoi?? You must check out their Ryukins......

Posted by: jeff123 Sun, 17 Dec 2006 2:12 am

Really a nice setup MCHEOK. But am a boring and not art inclined person so
do baretank lol.

For plants use one with alum solution. Soak plants in it. snail and eggs
are killed even if not detected. Or go plastic argh???

Your small pebbles are nice. I did use it once but remove it because
me so lazy Also small shells drive ph up a bit. Nice if
I you add sodium bicarb. to the mix.

Your black ranchu very nice!!! But even here in philipines
i ever buy Black ranchu. They turn gold 1 month. Only solution
is pond water which I dont have.

Very nice! Send a pix how everything looks.

jeff123

Posted by: MCheuk Wed, 20 Dec 2006 7:00 pm

Jeff123,

Here is the picture of my plain tank now. Note my black ranchu has turned gold now. Latest population update: lost one gold ranchu to HITH and replaced her with the white and red cap one.



Rather boring now I must say! I think over the holidays I will venture back to adding some pebbles and the rocks.

Leave the plants out for the time being.

Cheers

Posted by: MCheuk Wed, 20 Dec 2006 7:13 pm

I didn't know where else to put these pictures, so pasted it here.

As you can see, over the past three mos, my black ranchu turned gold! I fed it him Saki Hikari fancy goldfish (purple pack) pellets and Hikari lionhead pellets but it didn't retain the black. As the senior members mentioned, these pellets have spirulina, it didn't help.






So... I guess it's all in the genes and exposure to pond/green water.

I was also told that frequent changes to the water may cause this, suppose to be the chlorine? Perhaps the Docrush or other senior members can comment...

Posted by: MCheuk Wed, 20 Dec 2006 7:31 pm

I am doing all my updates over the past two mos because work has been too busy.

I bought another 100L tank to house my three 4 inch ranchus (two black and one red with white face). Since they were purchased at the same time, I didn't bother with the Qtank and placed them into the tank (which had been cycled for 7 days). This was in early Oct.

In third week of Oct, I decided to put one of the black ranchus into the 120L tank and move one of the ranchus into the other tank. But then noticed this blackie had an aggressive behaviour. After a wk I took him out and placed him back to the 100L tank.

Mid Nov - I notice two of my ranchus developing red dots. Wasn't sure if it was HITH. So put them in hospital tank and used JYP. After a while it turned out to be HITH!!! argh!

I was not able to rescue of the the red ranchus... sigh.
Other one is recovering after I got some medication from the dealer. Originally I used this medication called Ramical Flofenicol powder, since I am from HK, it's none of the packaging you guys have mentioned. It didn't work that well, so the dealer gave me some mystery medication (white cyrstal blocks that resembled crack). It worked.

Then in late Nov I noticed the ranchus in the 100L tank got the HITH too! WTF!

In my discussions with the dealer and his feedback from other customers, apparently there have been outbreaks depending on the which shipment of fish from Fushou.

I have attached some late staged pics of the HITH illness on one of my ranchus - she didn't make it. I am still trying to fight the battle with the other ones in the 100L tank. Note in the first picture, one of the black ones has it under its eye. They are all in the hospital tank where I have placed a filter and heater and air bublle.





Initially, I cleaned the wounds and applied H2O2. THen JYP to disinfect. After 9 days, I applied the Ramical powder... and then I lost my fish. I made 80% water changes daily. So just want to share my excitement over the past few weeks. Wish me luck with this HITH fight.

Posted by: goldrush Wed, 20 Dec 2006 9:06 pm

Dear MCheuk

From your detailed case history,I believe that your ailment are most likely imported and you may be dealing with a virulent strain which can wreak havoc to your existing stock which have not been previously exposed.Apart from exercising optimal water parameter conditions,you have to tackle this condition systemically.Your best bet would be injectibles(vet or experienced hobbyist help needed)and these can varies from country to country(jurisdiction,availability etc)Amikacin,Baytril.Chloramphenicol,Azactam,Rocephin are some recomended antibiotics
Another option would be Tricide Neo which is an antimicrobial dip reputed to be as good as injectible(not sure if it is available in your country)

Lesions appearing on face or head areas may not be true HITH disease but just bacterial ulcer breakout with an underlying systemic ailment

Posted by: MCheuk Wed, 20 Dec 2006 9:52 pm

Goldrush

Should I assume that my entire stock is infected at the moment? and that every fish should receive the same treatment?

I have been very vigilant with the water quality and nitrate, nitrite, PH parameters have indicated the water quality is acceptable.

Thanks

Posted by: goldrush Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:22 pm

Assume full contamination and do the necessary treatment with respect to the drugs available.Good luck.

Posted by: MCheuk Thu, 18 Jan 2007 4:00 pm

Doc goldrush

Unfortunately, my stock did not make it. The contamination was too powerful and I was not able to save them.

Over the past month, I have been cycling the tank and the new batch of stock has arrived. I will share the update on a new forum.

Thanks for your guidance.

Best regards.

Posted by: gohks Thu, 18 Jan 2007 5:06 pm

Is better you understand the cause of the problem before you take in new fishes. Why is there an outbreak in your tank

Posted by: goldrush Thu, 18 Jan 2007 7:32 pm

Dear Mcheuk

I'm sorry to hear that.New stocks should be well quarantined and ensure that you have totally disinfect your tanks,filter,tubing etc to rid off any residual contaminants before introducing the new batch.

Posted by: mickey85 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 7:40 pm

Simple - you put numerous big fish in the tank at once, after only a week to cycle (if it cycled at all - what did you do to start the cycle?). Hence, ammonia poisioning showing up as ulcers and bloody fins. The gravel has nothing to do with it. Also, the snails are a GOOD thing! They clean the gravel and save you work. If you want something to eat fish poo and old food - that is it! IF you start thinking there are too many, stick a slice of cucumber in there overnight, then pull it (and about 100 snails) out. You can easily keep them in check like this.

Also, if you put the gravel back in, put the plants back in. They help your water quality as well, eating nitrates and ammonia. Also, if you can get duckweed - it's a good thing. Toss in a bunch, and your goldies will eat it, and it will filter the water as well.

Posted by: chochiss Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:34 am

Dear Mcheuk,

I've read this thread from the start again & noticed that you fed your black ranchu Saki-Hikari Color Enhance (purple pack). As for black fishes, get the fish feed specified for non-red fishes. Saki-Hikari have another type for this blackies, it's Saki-Hikari basic (light green pack). This saki have no color enhancing content & will give your fishes almost the same amount of nutrition provided by the purple pack.

Sorry for your lost & all the best for your new arrivals.

Posted by: MCheuk Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:47 pm

You are right, but I was not able to diagnose the outbreak. Case made worse because I was always travelling and not able to observe the fish all the time. Based on everyone's comments, it could be viral imported from new stock, high ammonia (doubtful as I was vigilant about water quality), dorment internal virus (because all fish infected were from the Fu shou farm). I am afraid I am still learning about it and sadly, it cost me my current stock to learn.

Thanks for your comments Goldrush, Mickey85 and Chochiss

My disinfecting / cycling process: I disinfected the tank with 1/10 bleach overnight, replaced the water and added baking soda to clean the tank (as per the suggestion of the fish manager). Emptied the tank and introduced new water (added chlorine remover and BSP), let it run for a week. Then the fish manager loaned me four 2 inch Ryukins as cycling fish. They will help build up the ammonia, then nitrite and nitrate cycle. Once the tank is ready, I will return the Ryukins and introduce two new stock and will start 20 - 40% water change weekly

Thanks for advice on snails and Saki-Hikari

This discussions on this website is very informative and useful. It's good to see so many knowledgeable and caring fish lovers

Posted by: kenjione Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:12 am

This is picture of my oranda set-up.


I use an undergravel filter and an overhead filter. I had to use gravel to keep the wife happy cause its in the living room and she thinks the fish look bored. If you want to use gravel again I have found the combination of the 2 very effective. As you can see in the middle is a small dish. generally my aim is good enough and the pellets land in the dish and the fish can easily find them. Its also good for refilling the tank during water changes. once again provided my aim is good.

I also find putting the gravel in boiling water during a major clean solves any problems with parasite etc living in the gravel. If you alternate between cleaning the 2 you dont need to worry about if the filter is working allowing you to worry about other problems.

Good Luck
Charles