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> PH Buffer, Die Die must. Period.
mountain
post Thu, 07 Oct 2004 4:45 pm
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splitted from thread here.
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I think for PH crash it might be misleading to have SODIUM BICARBONATE as 1st line of treatment .. SODIUM BICARBONATE is for buffering water, and not for treatment of fish's health smile.gif plus if the PH crash, HB wouldn't advised you to dump 2 teaspoon of BS into the water immediately smile.gif
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goldrush
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 10:03 am
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QUOTE(mountain @ Thu, 07 Oct 2004 4:44 pm)
I think for PH crash it might be misleading to have SODIUM BICARBONATE as 1st line of treatment .. SODIUM BICARBONATE is for buffering water, and not for treatment of fish's health smile.gif plus if the PH crash, HB wouldn't advised you to dump 2 teaspoon of BS into the water immediately smile.gif
*



Hi Mountain

I agree with you that sodium bicarbonate is an excellent buffer..Never dispute that.But in event of pH crash which to me is an equivalent to medical condition of SHOCK,we have to address the problem with urgency.pH is prone to crash in unbuffered aquasystem.The fall may be attributed to the following reasons
1)accumulation of CO2,
2)decay fishes and plants not removed
3)Other waste products(feces ,,rotting uneaten food)
4)oxygen depletion(due to increase increase intro of fishes,night falls)

The chemistry of nitrification can be best summarized by simply:
Nitrifying bacteria comsume O2 and gives off CO2 which converts to Carbonic acid and lower pH.Concurrently the reduction process of NH3(Ammonia)to NO2(Nitrite) gives off H+ ions which inevitablby reduces pH.Another contributing factor to CO2 addition comes from normal respiration process of fishes and its aqua inhabitants.Thus the over all effects of all the above factors,if not sufficiently offset by other components in the the aquaculture causes pH CRASH
You simply don’t have time in case of ph crash to make change gradually.Remember it is equivaleny to an EMERGENCY..A teaspoonper40 litres is a good start and don’t worry too much of over dosing.Check the pH after ½ hr and it should be rising.Maximum
achievable is probably in the region of 8.
In conclusion pH is the among most important test to run when trouble surface.Watch out,be prepared.for it

Cheers
Goldrush
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HappyBuddha
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 10:42 am
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Good write-ups Goldrush!

I'll try to summarize it for those too lazy to read it in full or can't comprehend it. Correct me if I'm wrong:-

EVERYBODY WHO USE BIO-FILTRATION MUST BUFFER YOUR WATER. PERIOD.

biggrin.gif

I should add one should raise the pH gradually. It's said thaT goldfish can tolerate a sudden decrease in pH better then a sudden rise, both of which are considered "pH Shock" but the sudden rise can be lethal.

I have the misfortune of losing (quite a few) of my precious collection due to pH crash. I didn't pay much attention to pH then and never buffer at all. The old water's pH was probably in the low 5s and after water changed, raised to well over 7.0. The 2.0 level difference is a very significant difference since a 1.0 change translate to ten fold changes in acidity. My fishes sunk to the tank's floor like a rock the moment they entered the new water, and never recovered. Learnt my lesson, and started buffering my bio-filtered tank. Unfortunately, I didn't know the pH was still dropping gradually despite my routine weekly water change habit. The same thing, death due to pH shock, happened again. It was then that I carried out tests and to my shock found out I need to top-up baking soda once every 3 days!

Since then I have not lost any fish.

So....

EVERYBODY WHO USE BIO-FILTRATION MUST BUFFER YOUR WATER. PERIOD.

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goldrush
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:36 am
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Thxs for the compliment good_very.gif unsure.gif
Especially for those who use very limited filtration techniques(eg sponge filter)

PLEASE BUFFER SO AS NOT TO SUFFER.(LOSS)

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desireless
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 2:55 pm
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One more point to note is, one of the reasons why pH crash is so lethal, is because of the ammonia-ammonium transition.

At low pH (depending on temperature too), ammonia is in the form of ammonium, which is harmless to goldfish. So if you change like 50% of water or something after a pH crash, the average pH will be risen. This caused about the harmless ammonium to change to ammonia, which is lethal to goldfish.
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The Matrix
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 4:19 pm
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:36 am)
Thxs for the compliment good_very.gif  unsure.gif
Especially for those who use very limited filtration techniques(eg sponge filter)

PLEASE BUFFER SO AS NOT TO SUFFER.(LOSS)

wink.gif  wink.gif  wink.gif
*


What is Limited Filtration Techniques ?
Other than sponge filter which you have mentioned, what other form of filters, in your definition, falls under this mentioned technique. What are the other techniques ?
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CP
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 7:17 pm
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Hmm.. would the administrator help to split this buffering discussion into another topic.

Frankly,I have either not buffered my water before or have been doing it without realising. thinking.gif
I have not heard of buffering till recently. blush.gif
After reading the threads I conclude that it meant stabilising the pH (in our case preventing the pH from dropping as goldfish prefer slighlt alkaline water) so that the fishes will not experience a sudden rise in pH during water change.
My pH has been quite stable ranging from 6.8 to 7.5 for the past year.80L per goldfish,3 feeds per day,80% water change per week.
I also understand that most bros use baking soda.I have corals and oyster shell in my filtration.My question is,are these "alkaline" items acting as a buffer (raising pH)?They were put in during my tank setup at the recommendation from my friend who keeps koi.(koi and goldfish same family).I noticed that oyster shells will dissolve in the water over time.So,can baking soda be substituted by these items?
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cktan
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 7:44 pm
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QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 10:41 am)
I should add one should raise the pH gradually.  It's said thaT goldfish can tolerate a sudden decrease in pH better then a sudden rise, both of which are considered "pH Shock" but the sudden rise can be lethal. 
*


Err, i think goldfish can tolerate a sudden rise in PH than a sudden fall in PH. Same thing goes for temperature.
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desireless
post Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:48 pm
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QUOTE(cktan @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 7:44 pm)
Err, i think goldfish can tolerate a sudden rise in PH than a sudden fall in PH. Same thing goes for temperature.
*

I would agree for temperature. Rule of thumb is not to go beyond +/- 5 degree celcius change.

But I cannot agree with you on your pH part. I have already explained why, in my earlier post in this thread. Goldfish can take pH drop better than pH rise, mainly due to the ammonia-ammonium transition
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HappyBuddha
post Sat, 09 Oct 2004 7:31 am
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QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 7:17 pm)
 
I also understand that most bros use baking soda.I have corals and oyster shell in my filtration.My question is,are these "alkaline" items acting as a buffer (raising pH)?They were put in during my tank setup at the recommendation from my friend who keeps koi.(koi and goldfish same family).I noticed that oyster shells will dissolve in the water over time.So,can baking soda be substituted by these items? 
*

Although koi and goldfish are in the same "family", they are vastly different when it comes to how we keep them. Koi thrives in large deep pond with massive amount of water that is measure by the tonnage instead of litres. Sometimes it's best not to follow Koi's keeper's advise. For instance, they prize PP as a general treatment while we prefer salt. This is understandable as PP is very economical to use compared to raising the salinity to 0.5% for a 2 tons pond, ie, 20KG of salt for a "small" koi pond! ohmy.gif

Also it's important to remember not many koi keeper can afford to do 100% water change ever so often much less once a week like we do. Whatever they use in their filtration system need to last.

Realizing above, it's easy to see why goldfish keepers don't use coral chips to buffer their tank's water. It works but the chip dissolve too slowly. Before it actually start working it's time for us to change the water again. You're wasting your money even though the chip is relatively cheaper than baking soda. It works for koi keeper since they seldom change their water completely.

My advise is to use Baking Soda to buffer your goldfish tank's water. It works instantly. The kH is changed almost instantaneously, a fact you can verify by testing it seconds after blending in the powder and makes adjusting the dosage quick and easy.

To me, having some coral chips in your goldfish tank is... fine as an inexpensive bio-media to house BB! biggrin.gif But then I don't appreciate fine dusts settling at the bottom and risk damaging the impeller of the water pump. I also have this problem that seeing a bag of coral chips in a tank reminds me of a typical louhan setup. sad.gif
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goldrush
post Sat, 09 Oct 2004 10:23 am
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QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 4:18 pm)
What is Limited Filtration Techniques ?
Other than sponge filter which you have mentioned, what other form of filters, in your definition, falls under this mentioned technique. What are the other techniques ?
*


Hi Matrix

By my defination,simple and limited filtration system may lack in one component in a complete filtration set- up which inevitably would be the chemical component(mechanical and biological are two which are totally indispensable if any filtration is used)Because of these missing component which can be vital to offset any changes in pH we have to add “ chemically” through NaHCO3 religiously and periodically during water change.I hope I need not go thro details as to what the chemical components are.

Regards happydance.gif
Goldrush
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cktan
post Sat, 09 Oct 2004 1:32 pm
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QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:48 pm)
But I cannot agree with you on your pH part. I have already explained why, in my earlier post in this thread. Goldfish can take pH drop better than pH rise, mainly due to the ammonia-ammonium transition
*


I nv tried this but i believe if one put a goldfish from 7.0PH to water of 5.5PH as compared to putting that goldfish to water of 9.0PH, i think the latter goldfish will survive.

Need not wait that long for ammonia-ammonium transition. Perhaps a day or few hours one will know the answer.
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supzfier
post Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:43 am
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does it mean that >

1 as time goes by, biofiltration makes water more acidic > ph goes down.
2 ph needs to be maintain at 7.5
3 sudden change of water without buffering = sink to bottom? = bad
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The Matrix
post Mon, 10 Jan 2005 9:41 am
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QUOTE(supzfier @ Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:43 am)
does it mean that >

1 as time goes by, biofiltration makes water more acidic > ph goes down.
2 ph needs to be maintain at 7.5
3 sudden change of water without buffering = sink to bottom? = bad
*



1 - Yes. If the filtration media chosen does not take care of buffering capacity.
2 - Yes. For goldfish and any others that require a higher pH.
3 - Yes. Sudden change of water can cause stress to fish.
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supzfier
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:12 am
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blush.gif

have been buffering but really dont know if im doing rightly.

1) add in the BS to the unchanged-yet water so that the pH goes up first before changing the water?
2) how much do i add BS into the my tank per time? assuming a 4ft tank. i understand i must check the pH after awhile, but how much do we add in the first time round? i dont want to overdo it
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