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> PH Buffer, Die Die must. Period.
mountain
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:41 am
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rule of thumb is 1 teaspoon per ft , but this is with assumption that the current PH is in the region of 7. therefore, you should always get a PH reading before and after you add BS. this is also tied to the PH of the water that u added from the tap.

btw, buffering purpose is not just to make to ph goes up .. i am sure u have read a lot on PH buffering these few days .. watch your load + amount of water change and after a few test and trials i am sure you can get the amount to add correct . smile.gif
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CP
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 1:12 pm
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QUOTE(supzfier @ Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:12 am)
blush.gif

have been buffering but really dont know if im doing rightly.

1) add in the BS to the unchanged-yet water so that the pH goes up first before changing the water?
*


That is assuming that the old tank water is of lower pH,say 5 or 6 and you intend to use tap (say pH 7) as your new water.Not too sure if you can raise your old tank water this way and even if you do,you have to raise the pH gradually.(Can other bros advise on this).That is why it is important to buffer the water and prevent the pH drop in the first place.


The idea is for the fish to experience the same pH in old and new water.Suppose the fish is in green water pH 8 before water change and your tap (the new water that you want to use)is pH 7,use baking soda to up the pH of tap water to 8 before introducing the fish back into the tank so that the fish will not experience the pH shock.

Bros correct me if I am wrong.
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desireless
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 2:04 pm
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BS will raise pH a little but that's not the way to bring back pH of water back to normal. And this act will be FATAL. Ammonia at low pH will be in ammonium form, which is harmless to fishes. But when you raise old water of pH say 5 or 6 back to above pH7, the ammonium in the old water will convert back to ammonia which will poison and kill the fishes in less than 1 day. So if you experienced a pH crash in your aquarium, it is mandatory to do a 100% water change. pH crash itself will not kill the fish, but rather what you do later, will (like changing 50% for eg). Dispose all of the old water to be sure when you experienced pH crash.

As for pH buffering, its purpose is not to raise pH but rather, maintaining pH for a longer time before it starts dropping. That's why the term "buffer". As to how much powder to add, there is no DIRECT way of testing "how much buffer is enough". BUT as Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) will increase the Bicarbonate Hardness (kH) of your water, we can use this to gauge how much of SB to add. Some smart bro already worked this out: the ideal Bicarbonate Hardness level for goldfishes is 5 or 6 degrees of bicarbonate hardness (5dkH). You'll have to use a kH Test Kit to find out how much of SB is to be used to raise, say 10 litres of water, to 5 degrees hardness (5dkH).

Help from bro ET and a further test to confirm, about 8 months ago (and I am still using this gauge) is 1 oxycure level spoon (or 2g) of SB to raise 20 litres of water to 5dkH. So work out your maths.

I hope this is not too difficult to understand.

A point to note: Different countries will have different INITIAL dkH to start with. So just stick with what's being mentioned here that, "ONE teaspoon of baking soda added to 50 liters of water can raise the kH of the water by approx 4 deg dH".
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The Matrix
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 3:49 pm
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Correct some of your mistakes hor ...

BS will raise pH a little -> a lot !!! saturation of 8.5 depending on temperature and other chemicals.

pH crash itself will not kill the fish -> IT WILL !!!

there is no DIRECT way of testing "how much buffer is enough" -> isn't kH the direct way of measuring buffering if you are referring to the use of sodium bicarbonate ? Unless other chemical used, then different equation.
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goldrush
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 4:10 pm
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To add further to this interesting discussion

If I find a pond or aquarium where the pH has dropped into the 5 to 6 range, with ammonia at levels of 2 to 10 PPM, then I make a 90 to 95% water or even a 100% change as described by Desireless This means I take out water until the fins of the fish are barely covered at the bottom of the pond or aquarium, then add sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator and refill the pond or aquarium with clean tap water.

Also, some of you still seem to think that a pH of 7 is desirable. It is not desirable(can I use Desireless?) since the biological filter (if you are not using green water) can not function very well at this pH value, requiring much more investment, time, and energy in biological filtration than would be required at a pH value of 8 to 8.5. I agree that a lower pH makes the ammonia less toxic, but then it also generates a higher ammonia level by retarding the biological filtration function. Also, if there are plants and light present, there is a natural pH swing, low in the morning, high in the evening. Plants give off carbon dioxide at night, lowering pH, and consume it in the daytime, driving pH up. If you buffer the pond or aquarium containing plants with baking soda sufficiently, these pH swings will become much smaller, giving less stress to the fish.

Hope I makes some sense to all bros here

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goldrush
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 4:18 pm
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There seems to be a lot of confusion in the terms being used here esp with regards to water measurements and values.So let me try to evaluate each meaning of this term to ease the confusion esp newbies who may not be familiar with these jargon.
Don't confuse soft water with acidic water and hard water with alkaline water. Just know that soft water is water without anything much dissolved in it. It is low in cations and anions and almost anything else. You may think of it as purified water. A Reversed Osmosis (RO) unit produces soft water by filtering away the dissolved solids. You can't get soft water by adding something to make the water acidic.

Hard water is rich in cations, mainly calcium and magnesium ions. Most natural water sources and even some municipal water have a rich mineral content. This makes the water hard. To make hard water soft, use a RO unit.

kH or carbonate hardness. It is a measure of the amount of carbonates and bicarbonates in water. The higher the kH, the higher the pH or alkalinity. kH has nothing to do with real hardness. So it is really a misnomer.

gH or general hardness. It is a measure of the amount of minerals like calcium and magnesium in water. This is real hardness. You can raise the hardness of water to dangerous levels by adding only calcium and magnesium ions but that does not mean that the pH or kH will rise along with it. This is because Ca and Mg does not affect pH or kH. It is the carbonates attached to the minerals that will increase pH and kH.

So hard water does not necessarily mean alkaline water and soft water does not necessarily mean acidic water.

To sum up, baking soda will not raise gH. It will raise Total Alkalinity (TA) or kH and pH. kH is not real hardness. It is a misnomer. gH is real hardness and is a measure of calcium and magnesium in water of which baking soda has none.


enough confusion

goldrush
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The Matrix
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 4:25 pm
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hahahahahaha .... newbies will get suck into the dark deep cyclonical black hole.
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The Matrix
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 4:48 pm
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Goldrush, add more confusion, Total Hardness is a sum of General Hardness and Temporary Hardness and other impurities. Therefore, a true measure of hardness of water is by the a Total Hardness test kit or the combine equation of a General hardness + Temporary Hardness based on the condition of measure.
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desireless
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 5:21 pm
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QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 11 Jan 2005 3:49 pm)
Correct some of your mistakes hor ...

BS will raise pH a little  -> a lot !!! saturation of 8.5 depending on temperature and other chemicals.

pH crash itself will not kill the fish -> IT WILL !!!

there is no DIRECT way of testing "how much buffer is enough" -> isn't kH the direct way of measuring buffering if you are referring to the use of sodium bicarbonate ? Unless other chemical used, then different equation.
*


Substantiate my post a little

I have tested this before but now I have re-do the experiment for you. (Other bros please do not follow blindly. If you have the needed test kits, please counter check me. My pH pen might be out of calibration after using it for so long.)

This is 10 litres of dechlorinated water, pH read 8.3
IPB Image

This is half 'oxycure' spoon to raise it to 5 dkH (actually after seeing this pic, I realised that I have added more than half)
IPB Image

15 mins after stirring the tank, I used the kH test kit to test for Carbonate Hardness. This is the colour after the 5th drop (at 5dkH). It is still not bright yellow.

IPB Image

Bright yellow achieved after the 6th drop, I also added a 7th drop to make sure this is the correct colour. Meaning to say, the water is at 6th degree Carbonate Hardness (6dkH). As evident, I have added a little more than half-spoon. Half spoon at level should yield 5dkH in water.
IPB Image

This is the pH reading: pH8.4. The bottle by side as proof. The pen was left there for more than 5 mins before I took this photo.
IPB Image

Maybe to you a 0.1pH difference is "a lot!!!". To me it is only "a little".


As for pH crash, I always credit deaths (after pH crash) to ammonia posioning. Reason why I say it is not deadly (instantly), is because I ever left my fishes in water of pH5+ for more than 2 days (before I understood the concept of pH buffer) and they are still alive to date biggrin.gif. Of course, anything below pH 5 would be TOO acidic for goldfish to survive. And this would be fatal and fast, I supposed. The fish would then die of being in acidic water instead of ammonia poisoning. Reason as spoken before, ammonia at low pH is harmless to goldfishes.


Another point. There is no UNIT for "pH buffer". Hence I say there is no direct way of measurement. To me, from I learn in Science, if there is no SI unit for a certain "base quantity", then there is no way of measuring it. The measurement of Carbonate Hardness kH hence to me is, an indirect way of measuring this "pH buffer".
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goldrush
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 5:38 pm
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Yo matrix, enough liao too cheem to understand.Newbies will be put off by this exchange.I’m sorry if I sound too complicated but I’m trying to address the confusion but sorry if you end up having to undress your minds .A thousand apologies



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CP
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 6:08 pm
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Supzfier,
Dont worry.This is easier to understand.Example of matching the pH of old and new water during water change.

http://www.RafflesGold.com/forums/index.ph...w=findpost&p=17
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CP
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 6:26 pm
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QUOTE(desireless @ Tue, 11 Jan 2005 5:21 pm)
Correct some facts back hor...

I have tested this before but now I have re-do the .................way of measuring this "pH buffer".
*


For sake of discussion.

If the experiment is to prove that BS raises pH marginally,it is not very convincing if Matrix's statement of "saturation at 8.5" holds true as you had started off with a pH of 8.3.

I interpret "saturation at 8.5" as the max pH obtainable by BS is 8.5 no matter how much you dose.Am I right?

Desireless,can do us a favour by add BS to a lower pH say 7?
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desireless
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 6:54 pm
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Sorry I misread the post.

Somehow, it doesn't occur to me that (or rather, it is near to impossible to occur) that:
(1) someone who buffer his water and doing regular water-change routine, would encounter a pH drop to below 8.
(2) and, that somehow it happened and he realised the pH drop, he would quickly add BS to up the pH back.

(1) has never happened to me (after I buffer my water). By common sense, a water change would be better than (2).


The water in my area is always pH 8+
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peter porker
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 7:33 pm
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although highly not recommended, I have, out of desperation, raised my PH from acidic levels (5.2) to normal levels (8.0) with my fish still inside.

It is an adult fish , approx 5.5 inches long. I say desperation because I have experience crashes before and I could tell that the fish was going to go already.

So, baking soda in, fish experienced PH shock, tilted on its side but 30 minutes later, recovered fully and has been healthy (touch wood) ever since.
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desireless
post Tue, 11 Jan 2005 9:05 pm
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Re-did the experiment. There's a 0.5pH shift. To me it is still "a little"

I intend to pH down to 7. But it stablise at 6.9 .
IPB Image

After the buffering, pH is 7.4.
IPB Image
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