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CP
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:14 pm
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One of my idealistic aim when I started off this hobby is to design a system so perfect that water changes are eliminated or minimised.To date,it remains well......idealistic. sad.gif

For bio tanks,we all know that the end product is nitrates.And nitrates above 50ppm is harmful over the long term and stunts the fish.Whereas there are many products in the market that reduces (or is it CLAIMS to reduce),does it mean that our problem is solved if we manage to get rid of nitrate? thinking.gif

I used to think that solving the nitrates issue means EUREKA!!!Till I came to know about this "growth inhibitor" issue.I have read about it somewhere in the website before but had never seriously give it a thought till recently when a fellow forumer (bro Goldrush) mentioned it in one of his topics. no.gif

The fact (or is it theory) is that fishes will continue to secrete "growth inhibitors"
to prevent themselves from growing in a cramped environment(our fish tanks),to boost their chances of survival.This occurs naturally,much like when DO is low (eg when you off the air pump),the fishes will lie low and become less active knowing that oxygen supply is limited.

So what does it tell us?It means that we still have to perform water changes to get rid of the growth inhibitors if we want our fishes to grow,irrespective of whether nitatres,nitrites,ammonia and whatsoever has been eliminated. mad.gif
Unless,of course,there is this thing in the market called "growth inhibitor remover-add 5ml per 100l of water weekly".

Was wondering if growth inhibitors can be measured.Eg,if nitrates to be kept at less than 50ppm,growth inhibitors shd br kept at xppm.Best of all,if it can be eliminated. smile.gif
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Jos Nana
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:22 pm
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QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:14 pm)
One of my idealistic aim when I started off this hobby is to design a system so perfect that water changes are eliminated or minimised.To date,it remains well......idealistic. sad.gif

For bio tanks,we all know that the end product is nitrates.And nitrates above 50ppm is harmful over the long term and stunts the fish.Whereas there are many products in the market that reduces (or is it CLAIMS to reduce),does it mean that our problem is solved if we manage to get rid of nitrate? thinking.gif

I used to think that solving the nitrates issue means EUREKA!!!Till I came to know about this "growth inhibitor" issue.I have read about it somewhere in the website before but had never seriously give it a thought till recently when a fellow forumer (bro Goldrush) mentioned it in one of his topics. no.gif

The fact (or is it theory) is that fishes will continue to secrete "growth inhibitors"
to prevent themselves from growing in a cramped environment(our fish tanks),to boost their chances of survival.This occurs naturally,much like when DO is low (eg when you off the air pump),the fishes will lie low and become less active knowing that oxygen supply is limited.

So what does it tell us?It means that we still have to perform water changes to get rid of the growth inhibitors if we want our fishes to grow,irrespective of whether nitatres,nitrites,ammonia and whatsoever has been eliminated. mad.gif
Unless,of course,there is this thing in the market called "growth inhibitor remover-add 5ml per 100l of water weekly".

Was wondering if growth inhibitors can be measured.Eg,if nitrates to be kept at less than 50ppm,growth inhibitors shd br kept at xppm.Best of all,if it can be eliminated. smile.gif
*



On water changes, perhaps you should look for HN Lim at the other forum. If I recall correctly, his system 1 year change water 3 times only and he got 30 yrs experience. Even bred his own ranchus to sell. Own identity one - analfinless line !
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articguardian
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:34 pm
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So cool! I didn't know that there's this "growth inhibitor" thingy. My father rears these two luohans from birth but they've stopped growing now,they are about palm size big but I think they can still grow bigger. I've always suspect that it got something to do with the size of the tank that's too small (cos they leap out of the water like dolphins sometimes). But my mom doesn't want to buy a bigger tank. There's nothing I can do about it. yes.gif
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goldrush
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:36 pm
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Hi CP
Glad that you took my issue seriously.Just to add to your findings.

Do you know that ammonia at less than toxic concentrations can act as a growth inhibitor. An excellent reason to maintain ammonia at zero levels.

However, research has shown that our ponds contain other growth inhibitors, known as pheromones which are released into the water by our fish. The pheromones are species specific, i.e. will act upon fish of the same species, they are organic in nature (aha remember how I oxidised these thro KMno4 ) rolleyes.gif and toxic to our fish if present in large quantities. At a reduced level they will inhabit the growth rate of our fish

Therefore, if your stocking rate is high or your pond is too small, or your ammonia reading is high due to inadequate filtration and you fail to change some of the pond water at the accepted frequency, your fish growth rate will be low and reaching its potential will be out of question

regards

Goldrush yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif
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jhansolo
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:52 pm
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I also read about growth inhibitors can be removed by activated carbon.

In fact this topic is very swallow in research ... I do believe that if you never change the size of your kids shoe ... their feet will be small and rectification actions later will not blow up their feet.

As for pheromones ... I believe that is link to breeding aspect, not so much on growth. Again this isn very new and in fact perfume industry is racing to find / pin point the magical potion.
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CP
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 3:51 pm
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QUOTE(jhansolo @ Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:52 pm)
I also read about growth inhibitors can be removed by activated carbon.

.
*

I hope that its true!!Can anyone clarify?
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desireless
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 6:19 pm
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QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Mon, 01 Nov 2004 2:22 pm)
On water changes, perhaps you should look for HN Lim at the other forum. If I recall correctly, his system 1 year change water 3 times only and he got 30 yrs experience. Even bred his own ranchus to sell. Own identity one - analfinless line !
*

rofl2.gif
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jhansolo
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 7:19 pm
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QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Mon, 01 Nov 2004 3:51 pm)
I hope that its true!!Can anyone clarify?
*

http://www.fancykoioutlet.com/chris/chris_stressandkoi.htm

Almost right at the end of the page

The use of activated carbon has been shown to remove organic agents such as pheromones.
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jowy_ham
post Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:46 pm
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But if I didnt remember wrongly, activated carbon will also cause HIH diease leh no.gif
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nobnoba
post Tue, 02 Nov 2004 1:52 am
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this topic is really interesting.
i always wonder, since we always keep goldfish in a tank/fiber, can goldfish be kept in a pond?
if yes, how about the water change? you cant expect us/owner to change water in a pond every week? its hell!
anyone here keeping TVR in a pond?
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Seacucumber
post Tue, 02 Nov 2004 7:31 am
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QUOTE(nobnoba @ Tue, 02 Nov 2004 1:52 am)
this topic is really interesting.
i always wonder, since we always keep goldfish in a tank/fiber, can goldfish be kept in a pond?
if yes, how about the water change? you cant expect us/owner to change water in a pond every week? its hell!
anyone here keeping TVR in a pond?
*


who makes you think none of us keep in pond??
hehehehe wink.gif
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CP
post Tue, 02 Nov 2004 9:48 am
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QUOTE(jowy_ham @ Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:45 pm)
But if I didnt remember wrongly, activated carbon will also cause HIH diease leh  no.gif
*

Disagree,unless substantiated. hmm.gif
But it is said that activated carbon will take the colour out of arowanas,however this statement is also not substantiated. no.gif
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CP
post Tue, 02 Nov 2004 9:52 am
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QUOTE(nobnoba @ Tue, 02 Nov 2004 1:52 am)
this topic is really interesting.
i always wonder, since we always keep goldfish in a tank/fiber, can goldfish be kept in a pond?
if yes, how about the water change? you cant expect us/owner to change water in a pond every week? its hell!
anyone here keeping TVR in a pond?
*

Not sure abt Indonesia,but here when we say keeping in ponds it is likely to be cement ponds with regular water changes.Water is drawn from well and reservoirs,though. smile.gif
Natural mud ponds may be better,but I have yet to come across hobbyists who keep their pets in mud ponds.
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GF Lover
post Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:08 am
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QUOTE(nobnoba @ Tue, 02 Nov 2004 1:52 am)
this topic is really interesting.
i always wonder, since we always keep goldfish in a tank/fiber, can goldfish be kept in a pond?
if yes, how about the water change? you cant expect us/owner to change water in a pond every week? its hell!
anyone here keeping TVR in a pond?
*

When you say pond, how big you are referring to? I have seen it when I was small when my brother brought me to a fish farm somewhere in KL. Have no clue the location, probably by now it is where the Petronas Twin Tower is. Saw many oranda in a very big shallow pond. Maybe half basket ball sized sheltered pond. Is that considered big? Look into Alvin Lim's website. It shows some Japanese Ponds in Yatomi. Is that big enough? Website:
http://www.geocities.com/goldfishsg2000/cover.html

Steady Alvin for the good work. Maybe the Ozeki mambers and Matrix can convey my praise for the excellent work Alvin has put in. salute.gif clap.gif
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goldrush
post Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:47 am
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Mornin guys and dolls


I’m not too sure whether mud pond has any benefits for goldfish but it does wonders to koi for sure.It brings out the luster and color.Infact we have to artificially insert these missing minerals and elements to our man made pond through introducing clay(monmorillonite clay of smectite origin) Montmorillonite clays, depending of the chemical composition and purity, enhances water quality, replenish and enhance minerals and remove certain unwanted wastes. The uses and benefits go further than this. Montmorillonite improves the lustre and skin quality of koi as well as heightening the colour. Added to food it is claimed to aid digestion and increase the koi’s ability to assimilate the vitamins and minerals required in their diet. Because montmorillonite clay is used as a human health food as well as in the fish industry, claims by health experts make interesting reading. An average mineral analysis of Montmorillonite by health experts demonstrate it contains no less than 67 minerals, including vital trace minerals. Recently it has been recognized and utilized by the cosmetic industry and by soil experts, who value it as an exceptionally good agricultural enhancement: crops grow faster, taste better, and are more resistant to disease.
Montmorillonite contains a balance of minerals in their natural colloidal form, making it easily assimilated. The minerals present in montmorillonite enhance the production of enzymes in all living organisms.
Apart from introducing these clays to my koi pond,I have occasionally sprinke some on a weekly basis on the goldfish pond as well.But results are not substantiated and conclusive.Those clays marketed by koi dealers are usually rather ex(eg refresh/refine/Kusuri clay)I use the cheapest available.:Cat litter.Yes You read that right.The brand I’m using is CATSCAN unscented cost about $5-$6 per 5 kg only .and is readily available in supermarkets and pet shops.It contains calcium bentonite and it’s suppose to absorb the odour from cat’s undoing.
Montmorillonite also makes a wonderful, cheap face pack. Try washing your hands with it - the skin feels wonderful afterwards.
So guys time for some experiment

Regards

yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif
goldrush
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