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> Chloramine Level In Singapore?, Treating tap water containing chlorine / chloramine
goldrush
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:17 am
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Ever wonder what is the chloramine level in Singapore?I have heard our water now contains both Chlorine as well as chloramines.(from cp of course).So if bros here use water conditioner,containing NaHSo3 (hypo) to rid off Cl he has only solve half the problem.To begin with,please read the labels carefully that your conditioner must rid your in coming water of both CL as wll as chloramines.If any bros here know the level of chloramines here, will be much appreciated if you can share its value as its significance will be highlighted below.

First we must regard any level of Ammonia as intolerable in any system as it will bring irreversible damages to gills,etc.
Now we all know that Chloramine is a combination of Chlorine and ammonia. One of the differences between Chlorine and Chloramines is the length of effectiveness in the water. With Chlorine it is 48 Hours, with Chloramines it's up to 20 odd Days. Gone are the days when you could aerate the water for 24 hours and dissipate it if chloramines are added.It takes another week or so for Ammonia to dissipate completely if you intend not to use any conditioners.Now using Sodium Thiosulphate, or any of the commercial de-chlorinators in Chloramine treated water, leaves behind a small amount of Ammonia. That's why you need to use something (chemical or mineral) to rid of it when using treated (tap) water.


Things that can remove your residual Ammonia
1) Activated Carbon which is expensive and non rechargeable,non specific in its adsorption.
2) One of those commercial preparation,eg Ammonia binding products(Amquel)
3)Zeolite (rocks and powder) is used for Ammonia removal as well as for controlling PH. However the downside to Zeolite is that you're not able to use salt for treating bacteria/parasites because salt will re-release the ammonia from the Zeolite rocks. Then it has to be regenerated after a certain period of time which requires removing the zeolite.

Footnote on Zeolites

Zeolite will adsorb Ammonia immediately when added to the water if no salt is present. It can be recharged by a 3% Salt solution.
How Much to Use
1 gram of Zeolite will remove 1.5milligrams of ammonia from a liter of water. Take an Ammonia reading of your pond in PPM (parts per million). Divide by 1.5. Multiply by the numbers of Liters in your pond (3.78 Liters = 1 Gallon). The final volume is the number of grams needed to treat your pond (1 level teaspoon of Zeolite equals 6 Grams).
Recharging Zeolite
You can also recharge Zeolite to about 78% of it's normal adsorption rate by soaking it in a salt water solution (1lb. of salt to 3 gals. of Water) for 9 hours or more. Remember to rinse the Zeolite before returning to tank

Now comes the problem
Unless you do a 50% or more water change, this small amount of residual Ammonia is not harmful and will be consumed by your bio filter rather quickly(but bear in mind most of us are using limited filtration system…sponge filter) But let me hypothetically show you its danger should you not know its significance

Assume you are doing a 20% water change and there is 2 PPM chloramine in the water. 2 PPM chloramine neutralized with sodium thiosulfate becomes 0.4 (20% water exchange) multiply by 17/51.5 (molecular weight of ammonia divided by molecular weight chloramine) = 0.132ppm of NH3 being released

0.4X 17 = 0.132
51.5

But if you do 100 % water change and there is a huge 5 PPM chloramine concentration in the makeup water.then we would end up with
5X 17 = 1.65 ppm of NH3
51.5
The 5ppm chloramine reaction with sodium thiosulfate gets to yield approximately 1.65 PPM of Ammonia and that’s a real big problem !
So bros beware of this danger despite I have deliberately hypothesized the situation.So till we can be sure of a concrete level of Chloramine(which I suspect should be around 2ppm) being disclosed,a partial water changes is highly recommended if no conditioner is added and 100% change only if you have added a “relevant” conditioner or else utilizing 1 week old,aged water

This article serves as a supplement to the one I wrote on water changes with special thanks to ranchu8 for his input on CL/Chloramine queries ,our RG water connoisseur jHansolo for his technical advice and expertise,cp for his participation in every single thread for wat ever reasons and of course the Matrix for his continual sparring in a very positive way.
So read the above before you reach for your TAP ,you may be adding a problem or two without realizing it……….


Adding to your Mondays blue

goldrush


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CyberET
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:22 am
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shouldn't your biofilter be able to handle the ammonia spike? if it can't, i doubt it can handle goldfish's ammonia output tongue.gif
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The Matrix
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:11 pm
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wah seh ... my favourite topic. but lazy lah dun ask me to go further than this ... local water not so high in chloramines lah. simple lah, if anyone got a NH3 test kit, just dose the normal sodium thiosulphate and test for CL- and NH3+ ... from the result, one can calculate the concentration of the NH3CL complex.

one thing to note, multiple test will be require, 1 test is not conclusive. and quite a number of factors involve to calculate the real number.

Doc, 1.xxx ppm of NH3 is nothing compare to Goldfish waste. If one can get 50ppm of NO3+, just imagine the among of NH3+ ppm the filter got to work.

yes.gif
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ranchu8
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:35 pm
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QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:11 pm)
Doc, 1.xxx ppm of NH3 is nothing compare to Goldfish waste. If one can get 50ppm of NO3+, just imagine the among of NH3+ ppm the filter got to work.
*



er,... i don't quite understand the above statement. My question would be: whether 2 ppm of Chloramine is as toxic as 2 ppm nitrates? I really doubt toxicity is the same. Toxicity of 3ppm ammonia is vastly different from 3 ppm nitrates, and yes i understand that toxicity varies with pH, temp etc ... how about the usual temp in Sing with pH about 8?

(edit) pls excuse me if i'm asking something totally different from the above statement smile.gif

This post has been edited by ranchu8: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:42 pm
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goldrush
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:35 pm
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QUOTE(CyberET @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:22 am)
shouldn't your biofilter be able to handle the ammonia spike? if it can't, i doubt it can handle goldfish's ammonia output tongue.gif
*




Precisely,the biofilter should be sufficient unless the bioload (no. of fish/feeding etc)is over and above what it can handle.No wonder Desireless has multiple sponges to his fish ratio to overcome this problem.Bear in mind it is an additional burden(NH3) to a under performing filter if your setup is inadequate to deal with NH3 spike so to speak

Lunch time liao
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The Matrix
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 1:22 pm
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QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:35 pm)
er,... i don't quite understand the above statement.  My question would be: whether 2 ppm of Chloramine is as toxic as 2 ppm nitrates? I really doubt toxicity is the same. Toxicity of 3ppm ammonia is vastly different from 3 ppm nitrates, and yes i understand that toxicity varies with pH, temp etc ... how about the usual temp in Sing with pH about 8?

(edit) pls excuse me if i'm asking something totally different from the above statement smile.gif
*



maybe i rephrase my statement ... how many ppm of NH3 to get 50ppm of NO3.
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CP
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 5:05 pm
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My very own ten commandments on chloramines:

1)Chloramines are in our water for the last few years already

2)To rid it u have to purchase conditioner that say "removes chlorine and chloramine"

3)There are no adverse effects at all from the ammonia released as a result from the break-up of Cl-NH3 bond after the addition of anti-chloramine for my bio tank

4)For my office's 3ft tank 50% water change twice weekly without administering anything so far no problem

5)My friend 80% water change on alternate days, no addition of chemicals also no problem

6)Anti-chloramine is cheap, no harm to overdose so need not stinge on it

7)If it is safe enough for us to drink straight from tap, it should be safe enough for our goldfish to live though it may not be the best way to upkeep it

8)For facts and figures or chemical reactions formulas you have to ask Matrix, or you can give some datas to Goldrush and he may work out the answer in numbers (like the example he worked out considering molecular weight,piang!!!! smartalec.gif )

9)This topic will be of interest to my friend ranchu8 but with his queries may end up a 100 page thread........ biggrin.gif

10)I prefer not to dwell into figures, cos' only a hobby not rocket science, but will be very pleased if fellow forumers can quantify the discussion in numbers nonetheless. Let me just gathering.gif
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The Matrix
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 6:10 pm
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hahahahaha cp, i got to use spreadsheet to calculate molecular atomic weight. that's atomic science ... hahahaha.

but what the heck, point #10 very important.

Actually as Goldrush pointed out, CL-NH3 combination can cause problem to the fish tissues but not immediately causing death. It is Cl2 ( in some form of HOCl, OCl- ) that will have deadly effect, fast and fury. I believe some members here sure to experience this before. peace.gif

That's why many hobbyists did not use any form of anti-chlorine related products and still feel no effect.

So other than the commercial reagents to breakdown chloramines, something else could have break it down without us noticing it ....

This post has been edited by The Matrix: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 6:18 pm
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ranchu8
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 6:21 pm
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QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 5:05 pm)
6)Anti-chloramine is cheap, no harm to overdose so need not stinge on it

9)This topic will be of interest to my friend ranchu8 but with his queries may end up a 100 page thread........ biggrin.gif
*



don't put 9 as a commandment la?

as for 6), I believe Jhansolo may have raised a different view on this if the antichloramine is thiosulphate? (I may be wrong smile.gif )
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ranchu8
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 6:25 pm
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QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 5:05 pm)
7)If it is safe enough for us to drink straight from tap, it should be safe enough for our goldfish to live though it may not be the best way to upkeep it
*



QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 6:10 pm)
It is Cl2 ( in some form of HOCl, OCl- ) that will have deadly effect, fast and fury. I believe some members here sure to experience this before.  peace.gif
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er, are the above different views on the same point, or different points? peace.gif
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ranchu8
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 7:00 pm
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QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 6:25 pm)
er, are the above different views on the same point, or different points? peace.gif
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er, maybe pls disregard this as Matrix mentioned more in his post, and don't wish to start a debate over this smile.gif
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goldrush
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 8:03 pm
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Chlorine,and more recently chloramine are toxic compounds added to our human drinking water for our own protection and NOT FISH(sorry cp what is safe for us to drink is toxic to our friends even at low levels.
Now I brought up this thread on chloramine is to specifically highlight the danger of unknowingly and unintentionally introducing Ammonia into our system.One bro (Ohaiyo)had pm me on LFS selling some crystals or conditioner able to rid off any contaminants in our water during water change and I think I have to educate the forum on some ill-informed LFS selling off magic potion/crystal to overcome this problem.Ammonia is deadly even at very low level,so a reading of 0 must be used as a prerequsite.From my understanding a dose of 0.6ppm is able to show toxic effect on fish.Now by toxic level,I mean able to cause stress ie fish has to strive to thrive and not lethal level where it is fatal.Goldfish ,as many agree has comparable higher tolerant level to ammonia level but that does not equate it being able to thrive eternally under such condition.These prolong stress subjected upon the fish will invariably lead to problems.
Let me tell you another 2 additional findings


Will a carbon filter attached to my faucet(tap) remove it?

Yes and no. As we have discussed, chloramine (NH2Cl) is a combination of ammonia and chlorine. Passing chloraminated tapwater through activated carbon gives us this reaction:

Activated Carbon (AC) + NH2Cl + H2O ---> Ammonia (NH3) + H+ + Cl-

As you can see, the chloramine compound is destroyed. So yes, the filter removed the chloramine. But the ammonia is still present in the water!
You may find me contradicting on this as I had written AC being capable of removing NH3 but I must say that AC has no specific affinity on NH3 alone and it will probably vacuum up any contaminants and thus reduce its efficacy in dealing with NH3 alone


Will a dechlorinating water conditioner remove chloramine?

Yes and no. Regular dechlorinators(Hypo) remove the "chlorine" part of chloramine but leave the ammonia in the water. "Technically speaking" the chloramine is removed, but the water is not safe for fish. Some manufacturers of water conditioners state their product removes chloramine, but fail to tell you that the ammonia is still present in the water. In addition, many regular dechlorinating water conditioners are not "strong" enough to completely neutralize all of the chloramine. This results in both free ammonia and chloramine in your aquarium. You should use a water conditioner formulated especially for chloramine as cp has highlighted.

No figures for now

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CP
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 9:52 pm
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goldfish keepers here fall into 2 main categories - those who keep their pets in green water and those who keep in filtered tank.Both systems have one thing in common:- tackling ammonia.The former uses free floating algae, the latter nitrifying bacteria.So long as you have a stable system doing the job, resultant ammonia from chloramines should not be an issue.

Unless your filter system is not mature, or you have a collapse of green water,then you will have to be concerned with the resultant ammonia, but then again you should be more concerned with the ammonia from the fishes in the first place.Unless someone can tell me that ammonia from fish is negligible compared to ammonia from chloramine.........hmmm then I am not sure liao. no.gif Is it??

But just how much ammonia will result from the breaking of chloramine,well, we will have to dwell into figures liao.Can someone advise how much ammonia will be produced from 2ppm chloramine (as stated from PUB website)?Any volunteers?

The only figure that I can contribute is that for a tank with 100L per fish, 5 feedings a day and 80% weekly water change, all ammonia produce translates into approx. 40ppm of nitrates per week. Some smartalec.gif shd be able to work backwards to determine how much ammonia is required to obtain 40ppm, and since the amount of ammonia arising from tap water is also known, the ammonia contribution ratio from tap water/ fish can be roughly worked out.

Any volunteers? biggrin.gif


Before i sign off here is the first search result from yahoo:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm
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goldrush
post Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:44 pm
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=66
Hi cp

Assuming 2ppm is the correct level of Chloramine and you are executing 100% H2O change




then it will yield approximately : 2X17 divide by 51.5

=0.66




Accordingly enough to stress the fish liao should you have inadequate bio filtration to cope with its introduction

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The Matrix
post Tue, 26 Jul 2005 1:29 am
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QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 25 Jul 2005 7:00 pm)
er, maybe pls disregard this as Matrix mentioned more in his post, and don't wish to start a debate over this smile.gif
*



Not a debate, dun worry. I understand what u trying to ask. Sometime, it's not so simple. #9 will start to work if you continue .... hahahahaha. peace.gif

Remember 1 thing, the company responsible for municipal water is meant for human, the guidelines are provided by tonnes of research papers and human life comes first. Try going to a poor rural village somewhere out there and turn that tap on. The first thing comes to your mind is "where is my Newater" .....

I still remembered bathing using well water in a small remote island off Batam. The old head village master told me water can drink, got fish inside. I looked down the well, deep, dark ... hullo fishy ... echo. yeah man, can drink. sweatingbullets.gif
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