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> Green Water In Bio-filter Setup, Is it possible?
goldrush
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 7:42 pm
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QUOTE(desireless @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 1:31 pm)
Is that sponge filter? You shouldn't have bio-filters in your greenwater. It defeats the purpose of using green water and the bio setup will compete nutrients with the green water algae. Let the algae do the job of removing the fishes' waste.
*



Just curious from a biological stand point,can we achieve green water in bio-filter setup?In theory it may seems illogical but can the two system co exist in harmony as an example of competitive inclusion rather than a competitive exclusion.You see what we want is actually elimination of ammonia which both systems do wonderfully.But as for green water there is a limitation and that is light which it needs to fulfil to consume any ammonia.So in hours of reduced light like today,the green water would be significantly reduced in its effect to eliminate any secreted ammonia.So if you can have a back up like a functioning bio-filter running in the presence of green water,wouldn't it achieve the best of both worlds in combating the same enemy. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif Think about it .....but I guess you need to achieve a totally biological, balance ecosystem to satisfy both to complement their harmonious existence.

For me I believe the 2 systems already coexisted the day any water is added to any pond even though you may not promote its existence.You see,these microscopic animacules can assume both free-floating or in bio-film.Now it is those that are attached as plagues or bio-films which adhere to surfaces that can start a satellite of microscopic existence,a city of self sufficiency,efficacy and harmony.Now these are attached to any surfaces(floor,wood,glass and even mulms)and assume respiration,reproduction,growth as in all life forms(higher or lower)So if it is a matter of encouraging a particular form of algae to eliminate ammonia which is of your main interest then aren't you depriving another which can equally be effective if not better in hours of darkness........


.Brain teasing???

goldrush

This post has been edited by CP: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 7:53 pm
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infocus
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 9:12 pm
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Hey, I'm testing that right not. biggrin.gif But I'm not sure is my bio-filter fully cycled yet. Time will tell and I can see if it can co-exist with green water. I'm trying to feed more now a days to bring up the ammonia level. Will see if the bio-filter and green water help to eliminate the ammonia after a while.
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desireless
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 9:45 pm
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Tried it before. Not so successful. It is especially difficult to kick start after water change. Sometimes it just collapses. Of course, I am speaking from my experience with small-scale indoor green water.

Experience also taught me that when I use bio-filter with green water, or use PSB-based food diet, the result will be jade green green water......

... And Matrix will have lots to say about jade-green green water biggrin.gif


As for the concern with bio load at night, this is exactly why it has been mentioned many times to last feed your fishes at least 4 hours before last light.
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infocus
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 9:53 pm
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Tell me more! beg2.gif Tell me more! beg2.gif What is jade green green water? Are they useless for the goldfish?
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The Matrix
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:28 pm
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Desireless, I won't disagree on Doc explaination.
Hmmm ... co-existance is possible. I would not question the power of nature.

Should we go into a full boom green, dirty looking, cannot appreciate the fish at all type of green or do we want a clear water, see fish in full detail or do we want to have a mix of both world.

When do we need any of this, why do we need, how could we achieve it and what benefits do we get from any one of it.

I only question the intend.
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goldrush
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:29 pm
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Yes agreed that you will have difficulty in initial kick start as there would be too little organic nutrients to sustain both parties.Perhaps you can assume green first before incorporating some biofilter to share the bioload once a certain greenery is achieved.Incidentally in planktonic organisms they have highly invoved in their mode of nutrition that they can switch from autotroph(create its own food)to heterotroph(requring organic nutrients)So if light is not available they can switch to feeding on organic nutrients.So photosynthesis may not occur in darkness or low light but nutrition is very much alive!!!!
So do not assume photosynthesis (hour of light)as the only process capable of reducing your nutrient bioload.


Until now I am still puzzled by stopping feeding at 2pm rusure.gif
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gohks
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:33 pm
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Try before outdoor but not successful. Logically reasoning will make you believe they would not co-exisit hmm.gif .
Think these green water algae needs plentiful of ammonia to cultivate (besides the NO3 which enough for wall algae or filamentous algae) which the BB also needs (in day time). During the night, both will be competing for O2. These are highly unfavourable competing conditions that either one will dominate. Don't think an equilibrium state will be reach.
Experiment could be tried out. Setup 2 tanks outdoor, one bare and one with plenty of biological substrate material. I think the latter water will not turn green. Or you can add in the biological material into the ready green water, don't think the BB will be cultured smile.gif

This post has been edited by gohks: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:41 pm
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cheangv
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:37 pm
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What if you have an existing cycled tank and a separate mature green water and you start transferring the green water into the cycled tank. If you also have a continous high bioload in the tank, would it be able to support both?
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gohks
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:45 pm
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QUOTE(cheangv @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:37 pm)
What if you have an existing cycled tank and a separate mature green water and you start transferring the green water into the cycled tank. If you also have a continous high bioload in the tank, would it be able to support both?
*


My take is either one will collapse, depending on which is more. If both co-exist, think your fishes will not exist laugh.gif
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The Matrix
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:46 pm
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:29 pm)
Until now I am still puzzled by stopping feeding at 2pm rusure.gif
*


kekekeke ... how about another ponder ...

In wild pond, predators eat anytime they want to, as long as hungry. Where got dun feed after 2pm one. Some are night hunters.

So how how ... bioloading never stop, 24 hours ... how how how.


Start puzzling.
coffee.gif
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cheangv
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:54 pm
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OK, then how about adding in some green water as a food source for the goldfish in a cycled tank? Does not matter if they collapse as I will continue to replenish from my other green water source. Then you will still have clear water (maybe with a slight greenish tint) and yet the goldfish can get some of the benefit of green water
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gohks
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:55 pm
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QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:46 pm)
kekekeke ... how about another ponder ...

In wild pond, predators eat anytime they want to, as long as hungry. Where got dun feed after 2pm one. Some are night hunters.

So how how ... bioloading never stop, 24 hours ... how how how.
Start puzzling.
coffee.gif
*


Either the predators are resistance to ammonia posoning, or
predators are passive at night, not so much ammonia release till morning, or
pH level does not cause ammonia shock, or
too much dilution due to spacious environment...
correct or not tongue.gif
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gohks
post Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:58 pm
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QUOTE(cheangv @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:54 pm)
and yet the goldfish can get some of the benefit of green water
*


??? then u have CW biggrin.gif with algae as food source tongue.gif
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goldrush
post Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:01 am
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My intent is not to eliminate green water but to complement it through the introduction of some biofiltration once established to share the bioload and eliminate any residual ammonia in the hours of deficiency in total green water management(if any?).In this way perhaps you can increase feeding as well as added frequencies and indirectly achieve higher growth rate without fear of a possible collapse
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desireless
post Fri, 07 Jul 2006 1:23 am
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:29 pm)
....
Until now I am still puzzled by stopping feeding BEFORE 2pm rusure.gif
*


A simple explanation to the "BEFORE 2pm rule" is to ensure that there is enough time given to let the fishes digest and pass out whatever diet you have fed them in a day, and to let the algae work on the wastes, before the night comes.

I also do not disagree with the possibility of finding that "balance" for green water and bio-filtration to co-exist. It is possible. The problem is, you must find that balance. Like Goh pointed out, too much of either one will eliminate the other. And there is this grey area where both "seem" to co-exist, but you are not getting the "correct" algae/green. So the control must be very precise.
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