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> Green Water In Bio-filter Setup, Is it possible?
goldrush
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:35 pm
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QUOTE(gohks @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:44 am) *

Doc,
What we learnt is from what the "expert" says blush.gif Don't tell me is the blind leading the blind. I learnt this from Vermillion as they state in their web:-

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae." rusure.gif



OK .............Name me some Ammonia consumung algae then
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square_guy
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 1:44 pm
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Food for Thoughts


From a rapid search on the web,
Nitrogen preference of test species

Above link shows that certain aquatic plants (not algae) prefer ammonium, and not nitrate.

Unicellular green algae - Chlamydomonas reinhardtii
(I am not saying this is the green water algae we have)

Ammonia Exchange and Photorespiration in Chlamydomonas

I just got the above article from PubMed and haven't really read through it. Very interesting.

This post has been edited by square_guy: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 1:52 pm
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goldrush
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 3:16 pm
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Thank you square guy for the wonderful reference on NH3 consuming species which few are aware.But the pea soup which we encounter contains hundreds over species of single celled planktonic organisms,chiefly Euglena species which are neither plant nor animal in classification(protist) which are photosynthetic in hours of light and which requirements are very much similar to higher plant which include your Chlamyydomonas as well
So given the scenario as above as every organisms in the common pool compete for the same energy source,it will be very surprising this little population of such limited NH3 feeding chlamydomonas species can be an effective Ammonia eliminators.


So the sentence”enough goldfish to produce ammonia-the food source of algae is misleading and can be misread as it only satisfy the requirements of a very,very small population of total algae present.....

No wonder you need so much time before last light to eliminate your residual ammonia rusure.gif
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square_guy
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 3:35 pm
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 3:16 pm) *

But the pea soup which we encounter contains hundreds over species of single celled planktonic organisms,chiefly Euglena species which are neither plant nor animal in classification(protist) which are photosynthetic in hours of light and which requirements are very much similar to higher plant which include your Chlamyydomonas as well


Doc, can you provide some references for the above statement regarding "Euglena species"? I would like to read up more and some direct references are always easier than searching blindly.
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goldrush
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 6:33 pm
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A concise description of the many Euglena sp found in any water can be read here

http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLanding...ges/euglena.htm



How they form the main bulk of green water can be found here


http://www.algone.com/greenwater.htm


Will try to search for more if time permits

regards

goldrush
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goldrush
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 7:38 pm
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Now from the above,can we agree that only a small amount of Ammonia is utilize and taken up by aquatic plants as part of their nutrition as the bulk of your green water constituents are not ammonia consuming organisms(don’t confuse with bacteria hor)And if this bulk consist of euglenoid and related species that have the abilities to switch mode of nutrition,then can we conclude that during photosynthesis and in the presence of light they do not act as scavengers in reducing our organic nutrients which are the result of fish poo,uneaten food,decaying and decomposing organics.So what am I driving you at?
In sunny weather you maybe in for trouble if these organics are not process fast enough due to the green water’s strike(if I can use the term) in switching to photosynthetic mode.
Perhaps why you stop at 2pm is not to allow potential organic buildup to surpass a critical level as to cause undue harm as the organic scavenging may not kick in till last light(in the absence of light)Perhaps you can measure your parameters at this point of time to confirm the findings.
Because of the percentage of NH3 consuming algae are in low quantities that is why you need to adhere diligently to the fish to water ratio so as not to cause unnecessary harm if you practice green water management.

So what then remove your ammonia from your water?
The answer is still your beneficial friends which you deem as foes….

So why can’t beneficial bacteria live in harmony with green water?????

Please enlighten

goldrush
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The Matrix
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 9:58 pm
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wah si mi tai ji ...

same old problem over Aquaeous Nitrogen again ?

Tell me how does those nitrification bacteria reduce the aquaeous nitrogen to a less harmful nitrogen compound ?
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goldrush
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:05 pm
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Dear squareguy

Just another study on euglena and possible various toxins which it can secrete.

Notice >99% of the critters isolated are Euglena spp however the study is not done in our goldfish but some catfish pond laugh.gif


http://www.plantbiology.msu.edu/triemer/Eu...enoid_toxin.pdf
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goldrush
post Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:10 pm
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QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 9:58 pm) *

wah si mi tai ji ...

same old problem over Aquaeous Nitrogen again ?

Tell me how does those nitrification bacteria reduce the aquaeous nitrogen to a less harmful nitrogen compound ?



Si mi si aqueous nitrogen wah buay hiow leh????
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goldrush
post Tue, 11 Jul 2006 4:44 pm
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"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

From what I have written and supported by scientific findings and inferences,the above sentence does not hold true as ammonia is never a main source of nutrition of majority species of algae whcih are in your green water.

It is actually the dissolved organic nutrients (fish poo,uneaten food,manure,fertilisers etc)that are utilised in the absence of light which contributes to the florishing and proliferation of your algae.


Can any club members here support their claim before I start peeing into my pond???
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gohks
post Tue, 11 Jul 2006 6:05 pm
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 4:44 pm) *

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

From what I have written and supported by scientific findings and inferences,the above sentence does not hold true as ammonia is never a main source of nutrition of majority species of algae whcih are in your green water.

It is actually the dissolved organic nutrients (fish poo,uneaten food,manure,fertilisers etc)that are utilised in the absence of light which contributes to the florishing and proliferation of your algae.
Can any club members here support their claim before I start peeing into my pond???

Hey, if that's true, why goldfish can thrive in green water and why should we suffer for not able to see our fishes smile.gif

Will this be like Dawin's theory of evolution and never be proven complete true. I will nominate you for next year Nobel prize if your discovery is proven correct laugh.gif and somebody will be very happy if this is the fact ;)

why need to pee, just connect your sewer pipe to your pond and you will get very "green" water laugh.gif
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goldrush
post Tue, 11 Jul 2006 7:35 pm
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I never doubt the benefits of green water but I am just not convinced that ammonia is a main source of nutrients even if that is in the absence of sunlight.

THE kEY WORD HERE IS FOOD SOURCE.........AMMONIA....... hmm.gif hmm.gif hmm.gif

Any scientists and even colloge students can testify that they thrive on sunlight and organic nutrients and not inorganics.Unconvinced please search the net and see what is written by any sound scientific papers or reputable aquarium/pond sites(not porn sites).Ammonia is never highlighted as a main source of nutrients.Please

I pee becos it yields instant ammonia and nitrogenous waste to see if my algae turn them into something harmless hysterical.gif hysterical.gif hysterical.gif
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goldrush
post Tue, 11 Jul 2006 8:42 pm
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Let me continue where I have left

Hey everything exist in an equlibrium just like green water causing algae are ever present in well established pond (fully cycled)and your nitrifying bacteria are ever present also in your green water..Like it or not.Only external changes and human intervention can tip this balance in one’s favour but never eliminate it completely.
Why I highlight this false claim is to educate forum and not to ridicule any party.For all you know you may be crediting the wrong organisms for eliminating your ammonia.No thanks to some greenkies.

A good example would be a well established pond with excellent filtration system.But because of increased hours of sunlight,increased nitrates precipitation,we still experience algae bloom….Isn’t this a clear example of co-exsistence of the two within the same pond?Probably the only problem would be clogging of your mechanical filters which may lead to reduced nitrification processes as a result and the consequences are pretty self explanatory. ;)
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ranchu8
post Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:54 pm
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 4:44 pm) *

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

From what I have written and supported by scientific findings and inferences,the above sentence does not hold true as ammonia is never a main source of nutrition of majority species of algae whcih are in your green water.

It is actually the dissolved organic nutrients (fish poo,uneaten food,manure,fertilisers etc)that are utilised in the absence of light which contributes to the florishing and proliferation of your algae.
Can any club members here support their claim before I start peeing into my pond???

Hi Goldrush, does your theoy then explain why ammonia is negligible when the green water is rather intense?

Also, the water is less green in the night but becomes more intense when there is sunlight?
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desireless
post Wed, 12 Jul 2006 2:48 am
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QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:35 pm) *

OK .............Name me some Ammonia consumung algae then

Wah lau eh... rusure.gif I might as well count my hair. There are tens of thousands algae names to look into - Even if you ask a Prof in this field, he won't be able to tell you specifically. In outdoor green water like rivers or reservoirs, it is not uncommon to find a few species of algae co-existing. So it is ok that we generalize green water algae with the term "phytoplankton".

Anyway, this is a very interesting discussion. I too, am unable to find a convincing schematic diagram of "How green water algae eats ammonia?" process (I'm interested in knowing how the mechanism takes place, like how I learn about nitrogen cycle). Yet, there are many materials online that directly or indirectly indicate that ammonia is the source for green water algae.

For example (let's take euglena sp. as example):

http://www.utoronto.ca/env/jah/lim/lim06f99.htm
"EUGLENOPHYTA (Euglenoids) - Relatively large and diverse group but few species are truly planktonic. Most are unicellular but lack a cell wall and possess 1-3 flagella arising from an invagination of the external membrane. Most are P/S and facultatively heterotrophic. Nutrition is supplemented by the uptake of ammonia and DON. Euglenoids are found most often in seasons, depth strata, or lake systems in which ammonia and especially [DON] are high. (e.g., Euglena, Phacus) "

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/d...784&search=
Two things are important in controlling algae: nutrients in the water and sunlight. Planktonic algae uses ammonia (not nitrates) in the water as a nutrient. Installing a biological filter and a pump that turns the pond water over about 18 times per day should eliminate the ammonia and cause the algae to die off. If the pond holds less than 1000 gallons of water, you can make a simple biological filter by putting gravel in a 30-gallon garbage pail and pumping pond water through it at a rate of 800 gallons per hour.
(Notice that this is a good example: It is teaching one how to remove green water by installing a bio-filttation. To ensure ammonia is taken in by the filtration faster than the green water algae)

If you google algae blooms that involve Euglena sp, (read specifically on researches/reports), you will notice that authors will usually credit algae blooms to high concentration of Ammonia, Nitrate, and other nitrogen compound. Notice that they specifically indicate ammonia in these reports.

Examples like these:

http://squeezethepulp.com/viewtopic.php?t=...a367237daf20dd9
"The algae bloom in University Lake was identified as Euglena---which thrives on ammonia and is often associated with farm ponds, said Linda Ehrlich, owner of Spirogyra, the Burlington company that identified the euglena in the lake."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract
"Red blooms of Euglena sp. in the floodplain wetland ecosystems of Barak Valley, Assam, India, were found to be induced by high concentrations of NH3-N, NO3, Fe, Mg and to some extent, PO4, Cu and Zn in their water. The trace elements were rapidly accumulated by the bloom organisms to high levels, whereby their concentrations in the water declined, leading to a collapse of the bloom, which tended to reappear as decomposition again led to the release of the nutrients. The bloom also harboured fairly high density of certain other algae and zooplankton, thereby acting as a sub-system within the wetland ecosystem. The bloom is non-toxic and is exploited as a fish food by the fish-farmers who artificially induce a bloom for augmenting the growth of surface-feeding species of fishes."

The only time that I read about bacteria working in harmony with algae is here:
http://people.westminstercollege.edu/facul...pages/algae.htm
IPB Image
"Oxygen is generated by photosynthetic algae. It becomes trapped under its crust, and waves break the domes, releasing the gas as bubbles. Algae are the principle primary producer of organic matter in the North arm, which has been found useful to the bacteria. Algae depend on ammonia directly, and bacteria produce ammonia from organic matter containing nitrogen. Algae supply organic nutrients and stimulate the growth of bacteria to a remarkable degree."
The bacteria mentioned here is not the nitrifying bacteria (Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter) that we know so well of, but rather it is one that is involved in the process called "Nitrogen Fixation". In short, this is a process involving a family of bacteria that converts the inert N2 in the atmosphere into other useful nitrogen compounds like ammonia. The diagram above best describe a closed cycle in which that bacteria produces ammonia to the algae while algae produces organic nutrient for the bacteria. Focus at the "ALGAE" box - the arrow points from the "NH3" (ammonia) box

These are reports involving Euglena sp. I've read that Euglena is red/brown in colour so I am not entirely convinced that this is the kind that is in abundance in the green water that we see.

Lastly in this report on "phytoplankton" in Lake Powell in Australia, it is mentioned that:
http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/techn...001/tr44-01.pdf
Page [41 of 85]
"The occurrence of phytoplankton blooms in Lake Powell and Marbellup Brook are strongly influenced by nutrient release of soluble inorganic phosphate (FRP) and ammonia (N-NH3) from sediments and periodic influxes of nutrients from catchment sources. In addition..."

It seems to me that it is generally and widely accepted by researchers on green water algae that ammonia is the nutrient needed by such algae.


====

Of course what you've proposed is indeed a perfect situation. Green Water algae produces oxygen for BB to nitrify ammonia to nitrate, which in turn is fed by the algae. But in the absense of ammonia, the chance for existence of BB is incredibly low, because there is no nutrient (ammonia) for them to thrive on! So meaning to say, if your outdoor green water pond is full of algae and somehow you're able to find that BB exist in abundance, chances are that you're not getting the correct algae (that feeds on ammonia).

QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 8:42 pm) *

...
A good example would be a well established pond with excellent filtration system.But because of increased hours of sunlight,increased nitrates precipitation,we still experience algae bloom….Isn’t this a clear example of co-exsistence of the two within the same pond?Probably the only problem would be clogging of your mechanical filters which may lead to reduced nitrification processes as a result and the consequences are pretty self explanatory. ;)

Ahhh... This phenomenal is explained here:
(I think the author mixed up NH3 with NH4.)
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...8/msg00269.html

Nonetheless, he did mention that
"I've shown this to happen in numerous tanks and have repeated the same findings in controlled tanks. Keep adding a fish/shrimp etc till you hit a breaking point where the system starts to become unstable and the algae blooms begin. That's the max NH4 uptake the tank can handle without getting algae. NH4 is something you need to balance and have very little of in your tank. You get too much and you'll get all sorts of algae depending on the lighting level. "

Of course I am in no position to endorse what he said. Neither do I know who this guy is to believe in him completely.

But what he says makes sense. His argument is that ammonia is the main "actor" behind the green water bloom in an established clear water system, not nitrate. So one has to learn on how to control ammonia, by not overstocking his aquarium (which is what we have been telling newbies over and over again). But an algae bloom will only happens IFF there is abundant sunlight AND you overstocked until a point where your filtration can't take in anymore ammonia released by the fishes.
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