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> Koi Cross Goldfish, Is it Possible?
desireless
post Sun, 18 Feb 2007 8:55 pm
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Split from
"World's Largest Goldfish"
QUOTE(chochiss @ Sun, 18 Feb 2007 1:04 pm) *

A big possibility of a mix between a koi & a pearlscale. Look closely.......the structure of the body from front view has a stomach structure of a pearlscale. Sideview shows pretty similar signs together with a strong koi-like tail.


Front View of Hercules


Front View of a normal tikus


Side View of Hercules - Look at the side pearlscale-like scales & strong koi tail

How does one cross koi with goldfish? rusure.gif I have seen single-caudal Pearsclaes before but it is definitely not bred out of crossing Koi with pearlscales.

However, if it is a single-caudal pearlscales then it will be very rare for something of that size which the seller is claiming it to be! shiok.gif 50cm is definitely a record breaker!

I guess there will be no conclusion unless the seller catches the fish and shows a better picture. Looks like a big lake and I am wondering how the seller is going to catch it for the winner.
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chochiss
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 3:48 am
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A pedigree breed can determine their genes & character but a mongrel??

Mongrel is a mongrel no matter what you cross it with......when it's a hybrid....nobody can tell on the how it was done & what it will become.

The real body will uncover all our doubts.
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desireless
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 4:15 am
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QUOTE(chochiss @ Mon, 19 Feb 2007 3:48 amc) *

A pedigree breed can determine their genes & character but a mongrel??

Mongrel is a mongrel no matter what you cross it with......when it's a hybrid....nobody can tell on the how it was done & what it will become.

The real body will uncover all our doubts.

Eh halo... What happen to science ah? rusure.gif hmm.gif When you cross Elephant with rat, you don't get miniature elephants nor rat as big as elephant, do you? rolleyes.gif

Yes, you can cross celestial eye with pearl scales. Yes, you can cross ranchu with dragoneye. It is possible to get hybrids of 2 parents from different classifications because the parent pairs in the above 2 examples are from the goldfish family!

Koi is not goldfish! It is not closely related to goldfish. Some misinformed guy would tell you that "Koi is the ancestor to goldfish" but that's not true at all. You can never breed koi with pearlscales. Have you seriously look at koi eggs before? Not everything that swims in the same water can be bred just like that. Else we'll be selling freaks everywhere.

A single-caudal pearlscales is possible in a spawn between 2 pearlscales parents. They are usually culled. It is also possible to get such a hybrid when one crosses a shubunkin with pearlscales.

1) Shubunkin x Pearlscales => possible because
Shubunkin = Goldfish
Pearlscales = Goldfish

2) Koi x pearlscales => impossible because
Koi ≠ Goldfish
[END OF EQUATION]
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gohks
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:21 am
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Interesting discussion, so is wild carp = koi? If it's the same then I thought goldfish originated from wild carp and they can be crossed.

Anyway there is always a mix-up between a carp and goldfish in the west. This guy looks like a bloated carp to me and people called it goldfish. biggrin.gif
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goldrush
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:29 am
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Wah Chinese New Year got alot of fireworks ah!!!!!

Let me just say that goldfish and koi are two different Genuses but do belong to the same Cyprinidae family.As such because of their close cousin relationship they can interbreed to form hybrids very much like the mule which is a product of a paternal horse and a maternal donkey.Another example would be another hybrid tigon and liger which is a mix of lion and tiger(sterile in the making biggrin.gif )

Sorry got some guest coming so let me just refer all to an article on carp which has a brief mention on cross breeding between the two species which to the common eye.......very difficult differentiation btween the two peace.gif

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nreninf.nsf/...FILE/FN0014.pdf
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chochiss
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 1:35 pm
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QUOTE(desireless @ Mon, 19 Feb 2007 6:15 am) *

Eh halo... What happen to science ah? rusure.gif hmm.gif When you cross Elephant with rat, you don't get miniature elephants nor rat as big as elephant, do you? rolleyes.gif

Yes, you can cross celestial eye with pearl scales. Yes, you can cross ranchu with dragoneye. It is possible to get hybrids of 2 parents from different classifications because the parent pairs in the above 2 examples are from the goldfish family!

Koi is not goldfish! It is not related to goldfish in any way. Some misinformed guy would tell you that "Koi is the ancestor to goldfish" but that's not true at all. You can never cross koi with pearlscales. Have you seriously look at koi eggs before? Not everything that swims in the same water can be crossed just like that. Else we'll be selling freaks everywhere.

A single-caudal pearlscales is possible in a spawn between 2 pearlscales parents. They are usually culled. It is also possible to get such a hybrid when one crosses a shubunkin with pearlscales.

1) Shubunkin x Pearlscales => possible because
Shubunkin = Goldfish
Pearlscales = Goldfish

2) Koi x pearlscales => impossible because
Koi ≠ Goldfish [END OF EQUATION]


Sounds more like a personal attack more than a scientific explaination......... unsure.gif

Pls re-think your phrase:

Koi ≠ Goldfish [END OF EQUATION]

They are from the same family group with similar origins. Get your facts straight before trying to quote equations.

Thanks

This post has been edited by chochiss: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 1:39 pm
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desireless
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 1:56 pm
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QUOTE
Koi is not goldfish! It is not closely related to goldfish. Some misinformed guy would tell you that "Koi is the ancestor to goldfish" but that's not true at all. You can never breed koi with pearlscales. Have you seriously look at koi eggs before? Not everything that swims in the same water can be bred just like that. Else we'll be selling freaks everywhere.



When I said the bolded sentence, I meant to say goldfish is not directly related to koi. I once read some guy implying koi is the ancestor to goldfish which I think is awfully misleading.

Koi and goldfish may have evolved from wild carp but they are not directly-related.

I have just read doctor's article and indeed someone has done it. My apologies if I have misled members by saying that it is impossible that koi and goldfish can cross. As a matter of fact, it has happened, although there wasn't explanation how that was possible.
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desireless
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 2:10 pm
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QUOTE(chochiss @ Mon, 19 Feb 2007 1:35 pm) *

Sounds more like a personal attack more than a scientific explaination......... unsure.gif

Pls re-think your phrase:

Koi ≠ Goldfish [END OF EQUATION]

They are from the same family group with similar origins. Get your facts straight before trying to quote equations.

Thanks

I was just tackling the issue of whether Koi can breed with Goldfish. That was what you have proposed could have happened to a "possible pearlscale" that big. And I think it is not possible to maintain a line out of cross-breeding between koi and goldfish.

But why do you think that it was a personal attack? This is the second time I have read disgruntled posts from you. Come come... We must talk about this elsewhere:
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4653
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d_golem
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 2:24 pm
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http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_d...h%20Information

Goldfish and koi can and do breed with each other, however that 50cm goldfish is positively not a hybird and most likely a dropsied common IMHO
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desireless
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 3:11 pm
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Thanks for the link. Now with proofs of these pictures, koi cross comet can happen indeed.

But is it restricted to single caudal goldfish as it is closest to it ancestral wild carp form?
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d_golem
post Mon, 19 Feb 2007 3:27 pm
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QUOTE(desireless @ Mon, 19 Feb 2007 4:11 pm) *

But is it restricted to single caudal goldfish as it is closest to it ancestral wild carp form?

If all goldfish is one species, then a cross between fancy goldfish and koi is feasible. Afterall, the only difference between single-caudal goldfish and double-caudal goldfish is cosmetic only.
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CyberET
post Tue, 20 Feb 2007 9:54 pm
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i'm lazy to read thru 7 pages of pdf, doc, can explain more? biggrin.gif
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