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top_view_ranchu
Isn't she cute?

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The Matrix
kept in filtered water for quite a while ?
top_view_ranchu
Hi Matrix,
Its in my main tub. ISO green water (without aeration)
Is there a problem? Please enlighten!!!

Thanks!
nobnoba
what is ISO?
top_view_ranchu
Hi nobnoba,
I meant IOS internal filter.
top_view_ranchu
This is my main Tank!

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friction
nice pond there!
desireless
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Sat 03 Jul 2004 01:04 PM)
Hi nobnoba,
I meant IOS internal filter.

Wah.. for once I thought it was some ISO compliant tank shiok.gif

Nice pond... but the fish... unsure.gif
HappyBuddha
Cool.

What's inside your IOS? How about a pic of what's it like? Thanks.
white horse T1
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Sat 03 Jul 2004 01:19 PM)
This is my main Tank!

User Posted Image

u have one rainbar to return the cycled water with no airstone?
natural sunlight?

amazing that u achieve green water this way.
square_guy
looks incredibly overstocked u know...
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Sat 03 Jul 2004 07:44 PM)
Cool.

What's inside your IOS?  How about a pic of what's it like?  Thanks.

IOS is simple. Just a big Japanese mat, and plenty of ceramic (bio ring) in the bigger compartment. Smaller compartment is the power head.
Water flow in from beneath into big compartment and overflow into the smaller one.
Will take a pic of it on the next water change. Too troublesome to remove plant & pebbles.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(white horse T1 @ Sat 03 Jul 2004 07:49 PM)
u have one rainbar to return the cycled water with no airstone?
natural sunlight? 

amazing that u achieve green water  this way.

Return water by rainbar & flower pot, without air stone.
In the beginning was with with air stone but once I obtain green water. Aeration was taken away. Too much oxygen will cause bubble growth on tail.
Yes, direct sunlight.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(square_guy @ Sat 03 Jul 2004 11:07 PM)
looks incredibly overstocked u know...

At the moment 7. I know its overstock.
3 of them had volunteed to give up their 3 X 2 tub to my 2 new black baby.
Temporary measure, ordered tub from Mainland already.
nobnoba
hmmm,
i tried to use filter + green water before, but it doesnt work. The next scheduled water change, the green water wont develop. how did you do it?
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 01:36 AM)
hmmm,
i tried to use filter + green water before, but it doesnt work. The next scheduled water change, the green water wont develop. how did you do it?

I presume its the sunlight & ceramics.
Infect I do a 100 % change everytime. But do not wash ceramic too thoroughtly. green water start coming back the 2nd day. If I seed water, the next change will be pretty soon.
square_guy
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 10:03 AM)
I presume its the sunlight & ceramics.
Infect I do a 100 % change everytime. But do not wash ceramic too thoroughtly. green water start coming back the 2nd day. If I seed water, the next change will be pretty soon.

did you check your pH?

green water and normal biofiltration don't usually go hand-in-hand. It is likely that the biofiltration in the filter is non-existent. Or you could simply be standing on a knife edge of a delicate balance between the green water and bb (not very likely).

The pond do looks like a nice display pond. why don't you clear away the green water and go the filter-way? Gotta upgrade your filter, but it will allow higher stocking than is possible with green water.
CyberET
sunlight peace.gif
Allan
tvr

Has your IOS filter matured? How's the nitrate level like in your pond? If your filter is matured, you should get some readings of nitrate in your green water, but unlike a typical biological filtration, the nitrate level doesn't accumulate aggressively.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(square_guy @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 04:04 PM)
did you check your pH?

green water and normal biofiltration don't usually go hand-in-hand. It is likely that the biofiltration in the filter is non-existent. Or you could simply be standing on a knife edge of a delicate balance between the green water and bb (not very likely). 

The pond do looks like a nice display pond. why don't you clear away the green water and go the filter-way? Gotta upgrade your filter, but it will allow higher stocking than is possible with green water.


QUOTE(Allan @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 05:28 PM)
tvr

Has your IOS filter matured?  How's the nitrate level like in your pond?  If your filter is matured, you should get some readings of nitrate in your green water, but unlike a typical biological filtration, the nitrate level doesn't accumulate aggressively.


Frankly, I dont use test kit for PH or nitrate. Propably know nuts of them.
Have been reading all the bros discussion on them! Still do not understand too much. Anyway, I started this tub early this year. Did not face problem with water (might be the coz that I did not study further). green water just keep coming back? Infact, I once used anti green product to try to get rid of them. It work, maybe for 1 week and green water back again? And that choke my IOS totally with algae residues. Now keep low stocking. Waiting for my new tub. Even my other 4 clothes washing tub are green?
The Matrix
yo dave, why din u give a thought on why i asked "kept in filtered water for quite a while" ?

U got a photo of the fish when u first got it ?

do a comparison. The fish tells more stories than our guessings.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 08:10 PM)
yo dave, why din u give a thought on why i asked "kept in filtered water for quite a while" ?

U got a photo of the fish when u first got it ?

do a comparison. The fish tells more stories than our guessings.

I'm becoming more confused wacko.gif
My digi cam is only 4 days old.
Basically bought it because of this site tongue.gif
Cant do compare, please enlight. No suspense wink.gif

Thanks!
CyberET
how the fish develop, is a hint to how it was kept and cared for smile.gif
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(CyberET @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 09:34 PM)
how the fish develop, is a hint to how it was kept and cared for smile.gif

Keeping in filtered water? Isn't it quite normal?
Unless you only use sponge filter or only sand stone right?
The Matrix
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 10:14 PM)
Keeping in filtered water? Isn't it quite normal?
Unless you only use sponge filter or only sand stone right?

that fish has a jap look. I hope I am right. Look expensive also.

but the problems lies on development. Seems like out of proportion especially on the head.

Paisey, other than the miserable display tank with sponge filter, a few average fish for display and rotation, the rest of the my goldfish never have a chance to be in a filtered water tank.

pure green algae juice dude ...
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 11:30 PM)
that fish has a jap look. I hope I am right. Look expensive also.

but the problems lies on development. Seems like out of proportion especially on the head.

Paisey, other than the miserable display tank with sponge filter, a few average fish for display and rotation, the rest of the my goldfish never have a chance to be in a filtered water tank.

pure green algae juice dude ...

Wa lau,
I whole day cannot eat leh.
Now then you feed back!
Its made in japan and ex! You're right.
Why filtration disturb the growth ah?
I have tub without filtration too, but thought ex fish put in ex tub! blush.gif

Thanks!
jowy_ham
Bro Top_view_ranchu,

Really look forward to your sump setup ( pics ) cos I'm due for a similiar setup soon.

Just brought a 4ft FGT from 1 of the bros, plan to setup sump + sponge filter, but really know nuts about sump setup.

Appreciate any bros could kindly give me some tips on how to setup a sump IOS, wat equipment is needed as well as filtration media. beg2.gif beg2.gif

Thanks in advance smile.gif
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(square_guy @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 04:04 PM)
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 10:03 AM)
I presume its the sunlight & ceramics.
Infect I do a 100 % change everytime. But do not wash ceramic too thoroughtly. green water start coming back the 2nd day. If I seed water, the next change will be pretty soon.

did you check your pH?

green water and normal biofiltration don't usually go hand-in-hand. It is likely that the biofiltration in the filter is non-existent. Or you could simply be standing on a knife edge of a delicate balance between the green water and bb (not very likely).

The pond do looks like a nice display pond. why don't you clear away the green water and go the filter-way? Gotta upgrade your filter, but it will allow higher stocking than is possible with green water.


QUOTE(Allan @ Sun 04 Jul 2004 05:28 PM)
tvr

Has your IOS filter matured?  How's the nitrate level like in your pond?  If your filter is matured, you should get some readings of nitrate in your green water, but unlike a typical biological filtration, the nitrate level doesn't accumulate aggressively.


Hi Bros,
Just taken PH and nitrate level.
Nitrate : below 10 tongue.gif
PH : 6.5 ohmy.gif
Added BS immediately, but slowly as HB had mention.

2nd take
Nitrate same
PH : 7.5

Please tell me what are the consequences of long term low PH? beg2.gif
CyberET
now we know y theres green water smile.gif
filter issn't working + overstocked
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 02:00 PM)
Hi Bros,
Just taken PH and nitrate level.
Nitrate : below 10 tongue.gif
PH : 6.5 ohmy.gif
Added BS immediately, but slowly as HB had mention.

2nd take
Nitrate same
PH : 7.5

Please tell me what are the consequences of long term low PH? beg2.gif

Consequences? Lost of colour (as pointed out by our matrix) despite using "green water".

Normal green water's pH is above 8.0 during day time. You can artificially up the pH of your green water by using Baking Soda. Go as high as 6-8dkH.

You took the two nitrate tests how far a part? I would like to see you do daily test for 7 days if possible (your new test kit will expire in less than one month anyway so... put it to good use. biggrin.gif)

My own test shows presence of nitrate but it is low and stay constant. In a typical clear water bio-filered setup, the nitrate will accumulate daily. Bio-green does not have this problem.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 02:58 PM)
Consequences?  Lost of colour (as pointed out by our matrix) despite using "green water".

Normal green water's pH is above 8.0 during day time.  You can artificially up the pH of your green water by using Baking Soda.  Go as high as 6-8dkH.

You took the two nitrate tests how far a part?  I would like to see you do daily test for 7 days if possible (your new test kit will expire in less than one month anyway so... put it to good use.  biggrin.gif)

My own test shows presence of nitrate but it is low and stay constant.  In a typical clear water bio-filered setup, the nitrate will accumulate daily.  Bio-green does not have this problem.

Test was taken about 1 hr apart.
Will do daily test, hopefully bros here can help me solve problem.
BTW, how to make the filter work?
The Matrix
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 02:00 PM)
PH : 6.5 ohmy.gif
Added BS immediately, but slowly as HB had mention.

Nitrate same
PH : 7.5


peng you eh, u change your pH from below 7 to above 7 using BS hor, not really good to your fish. No wonder your tub got green water. your filteration system is likely running at very low efficiency, thus green water kick in to take over the filtering.

Go do a 80-90% change and restart everything.

Monitor your pH daily for the next few days.

either u go 100% green water or 100% filter ... have a thought over it.

at low pH, your fish is unlikely to develop well.

with such overloaded tub, do more frequent change.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 09:41 PM)
peng you eh, u change your pH from below 7 to above 7 using BS hor, not really good to your fish. No wonder your tub got green water. your filteration system is likely running at very low efficiency, thus green water kick in to take over the filtering.

Go do a 80-90% change and restart everything.

Monitor your pH daily for the next few days.

either u go 100% green water or 100% filter ... have a thought over it.

at low pH, your fish is unlikely to develop well.

with such overloaded tub, do more frequent change.

peng you ah,
As I've posted before. My intention was actually to have filtration without green water in this tub.(I have green water in another 4 tub to rotate fishes)
As I've also mentioned, green water just keep coming back?
So thats why I've also asked for opinion earlier on how to make filtration more efficient and stop green water.
As for the adding of BS immediately was due to shock realising PH was so low and not knowing what to do. Started going trough some old post and saw that advise.
Will do a 100% change tomorrow and wash up filter thoroughtly to start all over again.
But at the mean time can the "peng yous" here tell me how to make filter run fully and stop green water. Dont want another heart attack!
As for the overload, I will put the lompang fish back to their tub.
Probably, my black baby have to start swimming in a rice cooker cry.gif
CyberET
just do 90% water change, and remember to add BS this time..

without sufficient buffering capacity, pH drops into the acidic range as time pass.., and the BB goes to sleep biggrin.gif

use a test kit for kH to find out how much u need to add to reach 4dKh, and how fast it depletes as well.. right buddha? tongue.gif

after you've done that.. its a waiting game for your filter to mature, which can take a month..

meanwhile.. watch the ammonia and nitrite levels, and adjust your feeding/water changes accordingly..
The Matrix
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 12:56 AM)
peng you ah,
As I've posted before. My intention was actually to have filtration without green water in this tub.(I have green water in another 4 tub to rotate fishes)
As I've also mentioned, green water just keep coming back?
So thats why I've also asked for opinion earlier on how to make filtration more efficient and stop green water.
As for the adding of BS immediately was due to shock realising PH was so low and not knowing what to do. Started going trough some old post and saw that advise.
Will do a 100% change tomorrow and wash up filter thoroughtly to start all over again.
But at the mean time can the "peng yous" here tell me how to make filter run fully and stop green water. Dont want another heart attack!
As for the overload, I will put the lompang fish back to their tub.
Probably, my black baby have to start swimming in a rice cooker cry.gif

how filter works depends on how u want it to work. not just buy some expensive stuffs and plug in the power. anyway, sponge filter very efficient liao. cheap nice and good.

when u restart everything, reduce feeding for the next few days. or u try to shield off the sun light till the filter mature. 1001 ways for u to experience.

ET told u wat u should do liao. Give it a try. Short term, if still overloaded tub, green water will continue to come back unless u reduce feeding.

anyway, still black babies ??? greenish tint should be fading and grow about a cm by now.
HappyBuddha
The presence of nitrate shows the filter is working.

As a bio-filtered setup, it's working great since the overstocked pond is able to get such impressively low nitrate count.

Keeping everything the same, ie, the stock level, the sunlight etc, except stopping the filter system completely, this green water setup will fail miserably becoz it's too small (which is actually very big for most HDB dwellers). Adding the bio-filteration allows him to stock-up.... even extend the water change interval, ie, a great setup for newbies.

Hoot me.

biggrin.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(CyberET @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 09:05 AM)
just do 90% water change, and remember to add BS this time..

without sufficient buffering capacity, pH drops into the acidic range as time pass.., and the BB goes to sleep biggrin.gif

use a test kit for kH to find out how much u need to add to reach 4dKh, and how fast it depletes as well.. right buddha? tongue.gif

after you've done that.. its a waiting game for your filter to mature, which can take a month..

meanwhile.. watch the ammonia and nitrite levels, and adjust your feeding/water changes accordingly..

If the intension is to get rid of green water, then a 100% water change is the way to go. Changing 90% is seeding 10%, a massive seed even for a green water setup!

... and use a more efficient bio media. I believe Japanese Mat are meant for kois with large-size wastes. Go to LFS and ask for BioHome.

... and if you have existing filter in another tank, use some of its biomedia to kick start the new ones to shorten the cycling period.
top_view_ranchu
Last taken before water change.
PH : 7.5
nitrate : 10

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top_view_ranchu
After 2 hrs of hard work and half hr waiting before fish added.
This time 4 of them. (the original 4)
Reading after 1.5 hr after water change.
KH : 4
PH 7.8
Is everything fine?

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top_view_ranchu
QUOTE
how filter works depends on how u want it to work. not just buy some expensive stuffs and plug in the power. anyway, sponge filter very efficient liao. cheap nice and good.


Bro, I dont believe in expensive is good philosophy too.
Just buy what I think is correct. Might end up wrong thou?
The Matrix
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 03:18 PM)
Just buy what I think is correct. Might end up wrong thou?

Well, give it a thought ... what does filtration do ?

wink.gif
top_view_ranchu
Something's wrong!!!
Fish now floating and stone!!!
SOS!!!
white horse T1
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 03:01 PM)
Last taken before water change.
PH : 7.5
nitrate : 10


strange, yr filter looks really clean even in green water.

QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 04:08 PM)
Something's wrong!!!
Fish now floating and stone!!!
SOS!!!


did u gradually introduce them slowly to clear water let in a smaller tub first? and let them adjust to new temp and water condition?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 04:08 PM)
Something's wrong!!!
Fish now floating and stone!!!
SOS!!!

Since you just changed water, something is obviously wrong with it.

So, prepare a new tub filled with duly dechlorinated water. Make sure the water temp is the same or a little higher (but never lower), and transfer the fishes in immediately.

Aerate the new tub well (strong enough but don't let the fish get suck and struggle around to the bubbling water). Raise the salinity to 0.5%.

Observe the fishes.

I could think of two reason what happened.

1. They are experiencing pH shock; they'll get over it in a hour if left in the same water.

2. Way too much ammonia released from your dead BB; thoroughly clean the filter media.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(white horse T1 @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 05:20 PM)

strange, yr filter looks really clean even in green water.

My last change was last Thursday.


did u gradually introduce them slowly to clear water let in a smaller tub first?  and let them adjust to new temp and water condition?

I made sure the temp was same b4 transfer?
Thats what I do every change.
Even b4 change transfer.

My last change was last Thursday.

I made sure the temp was same b4 transfer?
Thats what I do every change.
Even b4 change transfer.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 05:31 PM)
Since you just changed water, something is obviously wrong with it.

So, prepare a new tub filled with duly dechlorinated water.  Make sure the water temp is the same or a little higher (but never lower), and transfer the fishes in immediately.

Aerate the new tub well (strong enough but don't let the fish get suck and struggle around to the bubbling water).  Raise the salinity to 0.5%.

Observe the fishes.

I could think of two reason what happened.

1.  They are experiencing pH shock; they'll get over it in a hour if left in the same water.

2.  Way too much ammonia released from your dead BB; thoroughly clean the filter media.

I washed the filter media many times.

I transferred them back to the original water.
All woke up in less than half an hr. Thank god!
Ron said it might be a fluctuate in the chlromine today!
I doubled the dosage, still reluctant to transfer fish back!
How ah?
top_view_ranchu
The 4 fellows have been transfered back to main tank. Thanks to all the brothers here that have given a helping hand.
Did not take any reading today because fish only tranfered this morning.
Thanks again for all that info and advise given.
I've added aeration this time.
Now I just cross my finger that green water dont come back.
Will keep all updated.

Thanks!
nobnoba
What a coincidence! ohmy.gif
The same thing happened to me on Tuesday afternoon( about same time as top-view ranchu)
Here's the story:
i bought myself a new thai ranchu, white with red stripe, very beautiful. i went home and left the ranchu to my maid. She is supposed to open the plastic bag and put it in a quarantine tub while i go for lunch. i didnt open the bag myself, because i was late for lunch with my wife.
Guess what? after lunch, i found the fish float upside down already!! the maid told me that not long after she took the fish out into the tub, the fish floats.
SO i thought the fish died, i threw it out.

only now after reading all of your posts that i realized, it might just be a shock! its not dead, it could regain consciousness in an hour or so. am i right?
cry.gif cry.gif cry.gif
mountain
it should not be so hard to tell a dead fish from a shocked fish.

your maid probably didn't do the right things when she transfer fish from a bag to a QT.
top_view_ranchu
Hi All,
Have taken reading this morning.
Nitrate : 0
KH : 4
PH : 7.8
Do you bros think its fine?

Regards.
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