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Ranchu_Lord
Hi bros..

Need enlightenment from the experts here!Is it true that a ranchu with one anal fin will hinder it's growth?And why do some people will really check of there's one or two anal fin when they purchase a ranchu?Is it for competition criteria purposes or for the growth or stunted fish identification?
mountain
QUOTE(ranchu_lord @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 11:37 AM )
Hi bros..

Need enlightenment from the experts here!Is it true that a ranchu with one anal fin will hinder it's growth?

Nope.

QUOTE(ranchu_lord @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 11:37 AM)
And why do some people will really check of there's one or two anal fin when they purchase a ranchu?

part of a personal selection preference

QUOTE(ranchu_lord @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 11:37 AM)
Is it for competition criteria purposes or 

There are competitions which has such criteria i guess ..

QUOTE(ranchu_lord @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 11:37 AM)
for the growth or stunted fish identification?

doubt we can tell very much from the anal fin whether the fish is stunt or not. but one of the tell tale sign is bigger eye ratio.
HappyBuddha
IPB Image

IPB Image

The 1st is GA 007, and 2nd GA 009.

As you can see both have single anal fin, and they are not stunt but developed well.
Ranchu_Lord
Thanx to all the bro's for clearing some doubts that i have.I have seen many ppl buying ranchube it side view or top-view,they will always ask the owner of the shop or turn the fish themselves to inspect the anal fin.I m curious.So..it means that single anal can still grow beautifully!
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu_Lord @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 11:37 AM)
Hi bros..

Need enlightenment from the experts here!Is it true that a ranchu with one anal fin will hinder it's growth?And why do some people will really check of there's one or two anal fin when they purchase a ranchu?Is it for competition criteria purposes or  for the growth or stunted fish identification?

In some competition, single anal fin will be a straight disqualify. For some, only points deducted. Of course, if the fish is of high quality, usually it will be a pair of anal fins. Even going to competition, no organiser will list down the criteria. So to avoid being disqualify from any type of competition, most hobbyists will be more strict on the anal.

But if for keeping purpose, no need to bother about it.
CyberET
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 01:05 PM)
User Posted Image

User Posted Image

The 1st is GA 007, and 2nd GA 009.

As you can see both have single anal fin, and they are not stunt but developed well.

mad.gif

they r obese!! tongue.gif
HappyBuddha
Single anal fin => will be fat, but not stunt? ohmy.gif
mountain
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 09:54 AM)
Single anal fin => will be fat, but not stunt?  ohmy.gif

misleading question and at the same time .. a misleading statement rolleyes.gif
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(Ranchu_Lord @ Mon 05 Jul 2004 04:37 AM)
Hi bros..

Need enlightenment from the experts here!Is it true that a ranchu with one anal fin will hinder it's growth?And why do some people will really check of there's one or two anal fin when they purchase a ranchu?Is it for competition criteria purposes or  for the growth or stunted fish identification?

One anal fin will not hinder the growth of a Ranchu !

One anal fin is ok, but two anal fins are better. The tail of a Ranchu with one anal fin is often weaker (also smaller Oza - see photos in this topic) and may collapse when the Ranchu becomes older. But there are very beautiful Ranchu with one anal fin.
You can use a Ranchu with one anal fin for breeding, but then the other Ranchu should have two anal fins.
At a Ranchu Show, when there are two Ranchu of equal quality but one with one anal fin and one with two anal fins ; then the one with two anal fins will win.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
pykoh
Let say a top view ranchu has two anal fins. If one of the anal fins is smaller than the other OR is slightly deformed (e.g didn't grow properly or become a stub), is this considered a defect???

Does it also mean that ranchu with the above mentioned anal fins cannot take part in any competition (i.e automatically disqualified)???
top_view_ranchu
1stly. I dont see much competition here!
2ndly. I dont know about others, but my hobby is my hobby.
3rdly . I dont usually enjoy their ass! wink.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(pykoh @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 03:35 PM)
Let say a top view ranchu has two anal fins. If one of the anal fins is smaller than the other OR is slightly deformed (e.g didn't grow properly or become a stub), is this considered a defect???


Topview or sideview, unbalanced anal fins is, of course, a defect.

QUOTE(pykoh @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 03:35 PM)
Does it also mean that ranchu with the above mentioned anal fins cannot take part in any competition (i.e automatically disqualified)???

Did you miss this post by The Matrix?
pykoh
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 03:56 PM)
Topview or sideview, unbalanced anal fins is, of course, a defect.


Did you miss this post by The Matrix?

Thanks for the pointers.

It would seems to me that even if the ranchu has two anal fins, it may still be disqualify from a competition IF the anal fins are unbalanced (i.e one anal fin is bigger than the other one OR one is normal and the other one is deformed)

wink.gif
pykoh
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 03:50 PM)
1stly. I dont see much competition here!
2ndly. I dont know about others, but my hobby is my hobby.
3rdly . I dont usually enjoy their ass!  wink.gif

What you say is very true but just curious to find out more that's all. smile.gif My favourite ranchu has unbalanced anal fins (one bigger than the other one) but I still like it the best. good_very.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(pykoh @ Tue 06 Jul 2004 05:13 PM)
It would seems to me that even if the ranchu has two anal fins, it may still be disqualify from a competition IF the anal fins are unbalanced (i.e one anal fin is bigger than the other one OR one is normal and the other one is deformed)

I don't think they will disqualify the fish for competition - that fish just can't win.

When the matrix mentioned disqualification in some competition... he meant for competition where the judging criteria forbids "incomplete" fish. Imagine if you send in a ranchu with no pectoral fins at all; it would be disqualified by the clerk in charge of benching in since the missing fins is obvious and a waste of everybody and especially the judges's time and resource to handle the fish. Send it to a freak show instead.
The Matrix
aiyo, why pay so much attention to anal fins lah. A good fish means a good fish. Unless the fin is so deformed that protruding out, then that's not going to do any good.

Of course, we want that completeness of a fish when we buy. Like Geert mention, at most take the 2nd position lor. Sometime surprises can happen.

So we have to really understand what we want first and how we appreciate the fish.
pykoh
Thanks to all the bros who provided comments to my questions/statements. wink.gif
Panda_ranchu
Thread moved from here.
===

Of course a near perfect fish in every aspect is good or like heaven... but very hard to come by or even impossible!!!
Just watch the AJRS video & you will know why...some of these prize winning ranchus have obvious defects which you don believe.Like it or not,it's something many hobbyist is trying to grasp. sad.gif
The Japs are very sharp & particular not only in judging but also in their food & fashion. beg2.gif
Well,the Japs are the pioneer who created TV from China so they call the shots loh happydance.gif
desireless
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:47 pm)
...
Just watch the AJRS video & you will know why...some of these prize winning ranchus have obvious defects which you don believe.Like it or not,it's something many hobbyist is trying to grasp. sad.gif ...
*

Har?!? "prize winning ranchus have obvious defects"?? You zun boh??

You sure what you have watched is AJRS video? Which year one?
Seacucumber
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:47 pm)
Of course a near perfect fish in every aspect is good or like heaven... but very hard to come by or even impossible!!!
Just watch the AJRS video & you will know why...some of these prize winning ranchus have obvious defects which you don believe.Like it or not,it's something many hobbyist is trying to grasp. sad.gif
The Japs are very sharp & particular not only in judging but also in their food & fashion. beg2.gif
Well,the Japs are the pioneer who created TV from China so they call the shots loh happydance.gif
*


how do u define an obvious defect in a TV ranchu??
which AJRS vcd?? which year and which fish u spotted have obvious defect??
Panda_ranchu
QUOTE(g-string @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 8:06 am)
how do u define an obvious defect in a TV ranchu??
which AJRS vcd?? which year and which fish u spotted have obvious defect??
*


It's a nisai which came in 5th position with only one anal fin.
Which year?Dunno?Any bro can recall? rolleyes.gif
GF Lover
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:32 pm)
It's a nisai which came in 5th position with only one anal fin.
Which year?Dunno?Any bro can recall? rolleyes.gif
*

Single anal fin is not considered a defect at all at the AJRS. Only no anal fin is considered a defect.
Seacucumber
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:32 pm)
It's a nisai which came in 5th position with only one anal fin.
Which year?Dunno?Any bro can recall? rolleyes.gif
*



single anal fin is not a defect in both TV ranchu comp and side view....
The Matrix
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:32 pm)
It's a nisai which came in 5th position with only one anal fin.
Which year?Dunno?Any bro can recall? rolleyes.gif
*


Is the judge a Japanese or a Thai ?
Panda_ranchu
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 04 Nov 2004 8:18 am)
Is the judge a Japanese or a Thai ?
*



AJRS judge must be a Jap...
I confuse liao...single anal tail not defect for TV?
Then what about uneven hump/arch or back???(TV only)Defect or not ha? unsure.gif
I know a spike on the back is definitely a defect, is it?(both SV & TV)
GF Lover
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:12 pm)
AJRS judge must be a Jap...
I confuse liao...single anal tail not defect for TV?
Then what about uneven hump/arch or back???(TV only)Defect or not ha? unsure.gif
I know a spike on the back is definitely a defect, is it?(both SV & TV)
*
Please refer to this site:

IPB Image

on the subject of single anal fin.
Jos Nana
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:12 pm)
AJRS judge must be a Jap...
I confuse liao...single anal tail not defect for TV?
Then what about uneven hump/arch or back???(TV only)Defect or not ha? unsure.gif
I know a spike on the back is definitely a defect, is it?(both SV & TV)
*


If you have seen the video, the judges dun even touch the fish or stoop down to see side profile. Notcie the speed in which they award the points to the fish ?

Thus, back profile and 1 anal fin is not important. Like you said, its all about the swimming.
GF Lover
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:27 pm)
If you have seen the video, the judges dun even touch the fish or stoop down to see side profile. Notcie the speed in which they award the points to the fish ?

Thus, back profile and 1 anal fin is not important. Like you said, its all about the swimming.
*
I think the judges do pick up the ranchu from the tank after they have selected the top few fishes from the hundreds of entries. Swimming selection always comes first. From the tubs of hundreds of ranchu, the judges will spot those with beautiful"catwalk" and put all the good"catwalker" together and then the selection becomes more stringent. Just like the Miss Universe contest. Narrowing down the ranchu and eliminate the poor swimmers first.

Goldfish with single anal fins are not generally considered as good breeders and there is a good likelihood that some of the youngs produces will be without anal fins. No anal fins means disqualification. Surely the judges must have pick up the ranchu to check if the anal fin is present.
Jos Nana
QUOTE(goldfish Lover @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 7:09 am)
I think the judges do pick up the ranchu from the tank after they have selected the top few fishes from the hundreds of entries. Swimming selection always comes first. From the tubs of hundreds of ranchu, the judges will spot those with beautiful"catwalk" and put all the good"catwalker" together and then the selection becomes more stringent. Just like the Miss Universe contest. Narrowing down the ranchu and eliminate the poor swimmers first.

Goldfish with single anal fins are not generally considered as good breeders and there is a good likelihood that some of the youngs produces will be without anal fins. No anal fins means  disqualification. Surely the judges must have pick up the ranchu to check if the anal fin is present.
*



The people that pick the fishes from the hundreds are not judges. They are mere handlers. Such is the high standards. Suggest you see the video again. Your description and understanding of the judging process is incorrect.

No Jap breeder will keep or sell fish with no anal fins. It is their integrity and reputation at stake. So such fishes will never be raised at all. There is no possiblity that fish with no anal fins competing.
GF Lover
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:23 pm)
The people that pick the fishes from the hundreds are not judges. They are mere handlers. Such is the high standards. Suggest you see the video again. Your description and understanding of the judging process is incorrect.

No Jap breeder will keep or sell fish with no anal fins. It is their integrity and reputation at stake. So such fishes will never be raised at all. There is no possiblity that fish with no anal fins competing.
*

Where to get the video?
pykoh
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:32 pm)
It's a nisai which came in 5th position with only one anal fin.
Which year?Dunno?Any bro can recall? rolleyes.gif
*



Single anal fin is not a defect. rolleyes.gif No anal fin OR two unbalanced anal fins (this I found out here) is considered a defect.
nanik
One thing that I saw in the AJRS video that I don't agree is the way they keep ALL the participating ranchu into one tub (of course they are split into multiple tubs), because as we know diseases transmission in fish are very easy, and keeping fish from different people into 1 tub, you can figure out the high percentage of the fish that was healthy will be no more healthy once it reach home.

Take for example KOI shows in USA and Europe, they are professionally organized where they really thoroughly check each and every fish that is joining the competition and not only that they have separate equipment (nets,etc) for each holding tanks and to top it all they have water experts standing by in case something goes wrong, and of course vets.

It's understandable that they are an old organization but personally it's no harm if they can open up and see what other organization in the world is doing to make things better good_very.gif good_very.gif good_very.gif good_very.gif

Cheers
desireless
QUOTE(nanik @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 2:36 pm)
One thing that I saw in the AJRS video that I don't agree is the way they keep ALL the participating ranchu into one tub (of course they are split into multiple tubs), because as we know diseases transmission in fish are very easy, and keeping fish from different people into 1 tub, you can figure out the high percentage of the fish that was healthy will be no more healthy once it reach home.
....
*

Hi Nanik,

I think Jos Nana already said something which can explain for your worry too:
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:23 pm)
.... It is their integrity and reputation at stake...
*

I believe the Jap masters/breeders know each other and trust each other's integrity and skill that none would maliciously bring sick fish to competition. And because they are masters, their fishes don't get sick as often as hobbyists.
Panda_ranchu
QUOTE(pykoh @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 2:23 pm)
Single anal fin is not a defect.  rolleyes.gif No anal fin OR two unbalanced anal fins (this I found out here) is considered a defect.
*



Thanks all brothers for clarifying tho.
I thought,bended one or both(ie unbalance )is alright?
Pls refer to picture.

You can get the vcd from OC.I think it cost $20.
nanik
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 2:45 pm)
I believe the Jap masters/breeders know each other and trust each other's integrity and skill that none would maliciously bring sick fish to competition
*


I agree that they have trust with each other no doubt about that, but technically it is not possible to detect which fish is the carrier and the risk still runs very high of fish contracting diseases from other fish.

For integrity and trust point of view no worries about it good_very.gif good_very.gif good_very.gif but technically it is very very scary ohmy.gif ohmy.gif
GF Lover
QUOTE(Panda_ranchu @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 4:21 pm)
You can get the vcd from OC.I think it cost $20.
*

What is OC?
Panda_ranchu
Ozeki Club... tongue.gif
Peepsla
-------Posts moved from 'Uneven anal fins'----------




Hello everyone!

I am a new member and just received a new 5.5" red and white Ranchu from a recent goldfish auction. After taking a closer look at him, I noticed his anal fins are uneven. One falls lower than the other by 1/4". Is this a fault? The other fishes up for auction had disclaimers like "single anal" and"split fin" but my fish had no disclaimer for uneven anal fins.

To the best of my knowledge with my own experience with other goldies like Orandas, Moors, and Ryukins, I've only seen either one anal or two symetrical anals fins but not uneven like my new fish.

I paid a lot of money for him and this is my first fish ordered online and I'm feeling a bit ripped off.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you!

Here are a few images of my new Ranchu.
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
Ranchu Lover
Personally I will not keep ranchus with single or uneven anal fins. Even more so if you have paid big money for it.

BTW not only the anal fin is uneven, the tail is also uneven.

Appreciate if you could share with all where you bought them from.
Peepsla
Thanks for your input. I purchased this fish from Dave at GoldfishConnection. I am going to write him an email now and never purchase from him again.
CP
Personally I am not bothered by my ranchus having single, double ,even, or uneven anal fins.I think it is not important, unless we are talking about fishes intended for comp participation.

I am not sure ranchus with defective anals fins can be used for breeding, though, thought I guess that its OK to use them to breed.

The quality of your ranchu shown is good, considering the fact the it is purchased in the US.I will not lose sleep over the anal fins, unless you are intending to prepare this piece for future competitions.
gohks
QUOTE(Peepsla @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 3:33 pm)
Thanks for your input.  I purchased this fish from Dave at GoldfishConnection.  I am going to write him an email now and never purchase from him again.
*


There is no "Perfect" fish in case you are looking for one. Some flaws on the fins but still acceptable. There are some other imperfections on the fish you shown if you don't even notice them actually will not even bother you. So, since you already adopted it as your pet, pamper with alots of care. Forget about the imperfections. yes.gif
Peepsla
QUOTE(CP @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 1:17 am)
The quality of your ranchu shown is good, considering the fact the it is purchased in the US.I will not lose sleep over the anal fins, unless you are intending to prepare this piece for future competitions.
*



Thanks for your imput and opinion. My new Ranchu is good quality and looks good overall. The only thing that bothers me is that there was no disclaimer in the auction that the fish had uneven caudul and anal fins. Some of the other fish auctioned stated "single anal" and "split fin" but mine had no disclaimer. Also, paying $230 USD for a fish (incl. shipping) with these unknown defects until delivered is not acceptable.
Would you pay full retail price for a pair of $250 USD designer jeans if a button at the fly is missing but still looks good when worn?

smile.gif
Peepsla
QUOTE(gohks @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 1:44 am)
So, since you already adopted it as your pet, pamper with alots of care.  Forget about the imperfections. yes.gif
*




You're right, I should've mentioned that I am pleased with this fish as a pet overall. He's healthy, eats well, and pretty to look at. I intend to care for him lots. As mentioned in my previous reply, I just think the seller should state the imperfections if he's going to ask so much money for it. It's not good business practice.
gohks
QUOTE(Peepsla @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 4:51 pm)
You're right, I should've mentioned that I am pleased with this fish as a pet overall.  He's healthy, eats well, and pretty to look at.  I intend to care for him lots.  As mentioned in my previous reply, I just think the seller should state the imperfections if he's going to ask so much money for it.  It's not good business practice.
*


Understand how you feel, in US folks got their fish through some aution sites and not even seen the real product, and sometime there could be some short of expectation. sad.gif

Not sure how much you paid but price could be a subjective thing when you come to buying of goldfish. biggrin.gif
Peepsla
QUOTE(gohks @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 2:01 am)
Not sure how much you paid but price could be a subjective thing when you come to buying of goldfish.  biggrin.gif
*



The fish was at a starting bid of $80 with a "buy now" price of $159 USD from goldfishconnection.com. I chose the "buy now" cause most of the fish were being snatched up like hotcakes. UPS shipping was $72.25 so $231.25 to be exact.

I also purchased this fish from another auction at Goldfishnet.com and should expect it's arrival on Wednesday. Wish me luck with it.
http://www.goldfishnet.com/ItemDetails.asp?i=581
good.gif
The Matrix
WOW !!! 250 US for a fish @@ Holy Smoke !

The red/white dragon eyes looks not bad. Cool buy.

Anyway, slight uneven anal is okay as long as not protruding outward and obstruct the lower caudal lope.
desireless
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 3:26 pm)
....
BTW not only the anal fin is uneven, the tail is also uneven.
...
*


Ouch... 230USD...

Like RL said, the bigger issue is with the uneven tail. Having paid 230USD for something like is really a big rip off. mad.gif Even if it is not meant for competition, it is still an eyesore for your personal daily appreciation... hmm.gif

In auctions or online sales, defects like this should be mentioned. It is not only about honesty but more on ethics.

Think it is better you write to the seller to work things out, rather than sending him a hate mail.
ball
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 6:19 pm)
WOW !!! 250 US for a fish @@ Holy Smoke !

The red/white dragon eyes looks not bad. Cool buy.

Anyway, slight uneven anal is okay as long as not protruding outward and obstruct the lower caudal lope.
*



Nice color, but I find the tail has too many wavy edges. A bit out of proportion for that body.
Peepsla
QUOTE(desireless @ Mon, 26 Dec 2005 3:20 am)
Ouch... 230USD...
Even if it is not meant for competition, it is still an eyesore for your personal daily appreciation...  hmm.gif

In auctions or online sales, defects like this should be mentioned. It is not only about honesty but more on ethics.

Think it is better you write to the seller to work things out, rather than sending him a hate mail.
*




It is a bit of an eyesore after spending $230USD on it. If I paid $50 for it from a local fish store, I could overlook it. But my fish came from what is supposed to be known as one of the most reputable places in the US. Plus the owner of the company is a well known goldfish guy named Rick Hess, author of a good book "Fancy Goldfish". Mind you, Rick did not sell me the fish, another guy did who is new at selling.
I wrote a nice but informative email back to the guy that sold the fish to me along with photos and a carbon copy to Rick. I'm just waiting to see if I hear back. At the end of the day, I'm not losing sleep over the money I spent, money comes and goes but it is the principle that matters.

;)
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