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mountain
i am having prob with my tank with the 3 GnG babies...
there has been 3 sponge filters in it, no mechanical filters.
but my nitrite is uncontrollable, damn.. wats wrong, no Bb in my sponge?
i am been trying to sort this out myself for the last week, but realise i am losing the battle. so have to consult bros here.

tank size : 90 by 45 by 45
% filled : 90% (abt 182.25 Litre or 48 gals)
Temp : 27-28
PH : 8.0 ~ 8.5
KH/GH : no measure but buffered PH using BS
Frequency of Feeding : Morning and Nite. 6~8 pellets morning, 8~10 pellets nite
Type of Food : TetraFin goldmedal Color Food

Water change Procedure
1) remove fish into old tank water in pail
2) Drain until left 15%
3) dose of Genesis
4) tap water in
5) adjust PH
6) aerate water
7) fish back in


beg2.gif cry.gif beg1.gif where did i went wrong?? shhhizzz broken_heart.gif .. can't believe this is happening to me..
CyberET
erm, were you doing daily water change? i've forgotten, hehe..
your filter not mature yet i guess...
meanwhile use salt to 0.1% so ease nitrite poisoning.. since u got 3 sponge, wash 1 each week can liaoz..
HappyBuddha
I can't see anything seriously wrong except perhaps the pH is a little too high when you're trying to cultivate BB. Bro kawai ever mentioned there's an ideal pH range for BB to thrive. I don't remember the range but if I recall correctly, BB don't like pH above 8. Maybe someone could give a second opinion on this before you gradually lower the pH to... say... 7.5?

Side track mode: Feeding 6-8 pellets (per fish I presume) is waaaay toooo little. I just took a pinch, my usual pinch, of the same pellets you have and there are like... 40-50 pellets. Plus I feed more than 4 times a day.

Also... switch to the green can - Growth Food - since the babies probably need to be pumped up at this stage. Their colour seems fine anyway. The Growth version is pretty impressive with 43% (just 4% less than JRL) and all my fishes eat it (unlike JRL.) Too bad it's floating type. So what I do is mix it with my lionhead pellets to "balance" up their meal.
The Matrix
bb requires at least 6.5pH to start and best to maintain from range above 7 to 8.5. However, that depends on your water temperature of 25 to 29 degC.

2ndly, how uncontrollable of nitrite ? This is very unusual for such a tank size for 3 fishes and 3 filter media and at extremely light feeding.

How high is "uncontrollable nitrite" ?
What else you do during water change that is/are not mentioned ?
Countercheck your test kit ?
How many days/hours after the water change when u check the parameters ?
square_guy
just a tot, for those of us with only sponge filter, does changing 100% water affect the filter in anyway? most of the time tap water is add straight into the tank, even with anti-chlorine, there is bound to be some loss of BB in the sponge.

wat's your procedure?
mountain
QUOTE(demekin @ Wed 10 Dec 2003 12:57 PM)
bb requires at least 6.5pH to start and best to maintain from range above 7 to 8.5. However, that depends on your water temperature of 25 to 29 degC.

2ndly, how uncontrollable of nitrite ? This is very unusual for such a tank size for 3 fishes and 3 filter media and at extremely light feeding.

How high is "uncontrollable nitrite" ?
What else you do during water change that is/are not mentioned ?
Countercheck your test kit ?
How many days/hours after the water change when u check the parameters ?

initially i also suspect my test kit, but it was counterchecked against tap water. no problem with kit. i am not doing daily water changes anymore.

3 days after the water change, i checked. it rockets out of the chart yesterday i checked. sad.gif

hmm .. water change procedure.. hmm .. well .. i try to clean up the dirt around the sponges by sucking it away using my pvc tube. is it the chorine tats killing everything? maybe my genesis isn't working ... (but so unlikely)

3 sponges.. 3 fish .. nitrite went as high up to 100 i guess within 2~3 days.. tats something ridicules wrong with me..damn i wish it wasn;t the 3 GnG babies inside..

bro HB, i dun dare to feed too much.. because i know something is wrong.. so dun wan to make things worst for myself wink.gif thanks for the alert on the growth food .

tonite when i reach home will test again. if all is not well, prb i will start all over with fresh tank water and dip the sponges in hot water before starting over again.

(p/s there was once i was using old dohphin lamp, it dropped into the tank and i electrocuted myself happydance.gif ) heng the duds are alreadi in the pail. tongue.gif
square_guy
i do not have experience with sponge. i do have 1 in my tank, but i never take any precaution in water change (with regards to the sponge) as it is only a backup to my OHF.

gee, if nitrite is 100mg/l, wouldn't the fish die already? anyone know toxicity of nitrite?
HappyBuddha
CODE
some facts to consider about BB:

The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.
The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

Anything outside 6.5 and 8.0 will retard their growth and nitrification will come to a halt in extreme conditions.

The above is what bro kawai was telling us. Funny the ideal range of pH for the two strains of bb does NOT overlap. How ah? biggrin.gif

Anyway... I have no idea where bro kawai took the figures from but looks like pH 8.5 is too high.

Bro mountain... maybe I have misled you on an occassion when I said pH 8.5 is good for goldfish. It is... but that's in green water where there's NO bb. biggrin.gif I buffer my clear water at pH 7.5 nia.

Drop your pH and see how it goes.

Erm... don't vacuum your sponge filters yet even if it's clogged with poos. Live with it until they mature.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(square_guy @ Wed 10 Dec 2003 01:42 PM)
just a tot, for those of us with only sponge filter, does changing 100% water affect the filter in anyway? most of the time tap water is add straight into the tank, even with anti-chlorine, there is bound to be some loss of BB in the sponge.

wat's your procedure?

After moving all the fishes into a tub filled with old tank water, I squeeze and rinse the sponge filter inside the to-be-cleaned tank. Then I move the now relatively clean sponge into the temporary tub with the fishes. Proceed to change water, all 100% of it. After filling up the tank and conditioned the water, then I reinstall the sponge back into the tank. The method works well except my sponge a bit... out-of-shape leow. smile.gif
mountain
hai.. looks like the problem could be the ph .. will work on it tonite..
yei.. my babies are living in toxic waste ... good_no.gif booo booo mountain...

bro sq_guy, no need to second guess abt how toxic is nitrite.. dun have a bit of it man.. i am heading for trouble.. blush.gif
CyberET
could be your nitrite kit defective.. its very difficult to hit 100 in just 3 days wor with your light feeding..
i also had a nitrate kit that shows 0 with tap water, and off the charts with my pond water...
try with another test kit wink.gif
mountain
QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed 10 Dec 2003 02:48 PM)
could be your nitrite kit defective.. its very difficult to hit 100 in just 3 days wor with your light feeding..
i also had a nitrate kit that shows 0 with tap water, and off the charts with my pond water...
try with another test kit wink.gif

shiok.gif izzit! caz i did counter test with tap water for 0 readings ...

tonite is the nite .. no sex.. go buy new test kit.
caster
QUOTE(mountain @ Wed 10 Dec 2003 04:09 PM)
shiok.gif izzit! caz i did counter test with tap water for 0 readings ...

tonite is the nite .. no sex.. go buy new test kit.

Bro.... I experience same problem as u before

was cycling for almost one month still have very high Nitrite..... thought my kit got problem too, change 80% water and within 1 day ..... very very high nitrite level liao... I went back to the shop hoping that they will replace me a new kit...... but when they test their tank... all okie

So bo pian.... under their recommendation (BTW shop the Petmart) I bought the Angel CR and a $30 bottle worth of bacteria...... (I have finished a bottle of sera nitirvec before this).

Amazingly, after 1 week... my water suddenly becomes crystal clear and ho say liao.... I quickly measure my nitrite level and it indicates ZERO......damn happy.........but my PH starts to drop sad.gif ..... so as recommended by shop again, I put in coral chip to buffer the ph.......so far so good.....cheers

So brudder.... buy good CR and you are on the way to a "Cycle" tank
CyberET
QUOTE(mountain @ Wed 10 Dec 2003 04:09 PM)
shiok.gif izzit! caz i did counter test with tap water for 0 readings ...

tonite is the nite .. no sex.. go buy new test kit.

surposing u didn't wash your sponge filter, and the bubbling is strong enough.. with sufficient buffer.. your filter should work fine.. 6 pellets per feed per fish is very little neh.. hehehe.. does it also show sky high results 24hrs after feeding? 0, middle, or sky high?
mountain
beg1.gif beg2.gif Chio To Ma Tie!! Chio To Ma Tie!! .. di di me still at work .. let me get home and work things out.. rolleyes.gif
square_guy
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 10 Dec 2003 02:12 PM)
After moving all the fishes into a tub filled with old tank water, I squeeze and rinse the sponge filter inside the to-be-cleaned tank.  Then I move the now relatively clean sponge into the temporary tub with the fishes.  Proceed to change water, all 100% of it.  After filling up the tank and conditioned the water, then I reinstall the sponge back into the tank.  The method works well except my sponge a bit... out-of-shape leow.  smile.gif

ahhh, so your sponge goes where your fishes go hur... thanks smile.gif
mountain
KNS (sorrie).. 3 fat GnG duds.. yet my ammonia is close to 0!!
of caz no BB like tat lei..
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mountain @ Mon 15 Dec 2003 10:15 AM)
KNS (sorrie)..  3 fat GnG duds.. yet my ammonia is close to 0!!
of caz no BB like tat lei..

Hello!?

No ammonia is the best man. I mean... erm... why do you want ammonia?

Okay... it seems a little strange that ammonia is zero for clear water but hey, if the test kit is accurate, woo hoo... you way understocked your tank.

Can have sex leow!
mountain
Boss.. not tat i like to complain abt ammonia laugh.gif .. but tat single dumbo stupo crapo sponge stubbornly refused to reduce the nitrite. with 0 ammonia cannot start BB mah.. dun tell me i wrong if not tonite u buy wan bao u see headline... mountain tried to drown himself in 2ft tank.

but understock my tank.. happydance.gif maybe can buy a new lionhead
CyberET
har? so now its 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite? impossible le.. u got feed or not? never feed also got ammonia neh..
square_guy
haven't fully cycled lah. enough bb to consume ammonia to nitrite, but the colony of bb to convert nitrite to nitrate not large enough yet for current load.
mountain
QUOTE(CyberET @ Mon 15 Dec 2003 11:32 AM)
har? so now its 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite? impossible le.. u got feed or not? never feed also got ammonia neh..

ohh no !! i have been forgetting to feed my fish!! :mata

wink.gif ammonia is also released from their gills

no lah .. the nitrite level still rising. guess its really hard to mature my sponge.
CyberET
blink.gif dunno.. confused liaoz
square_guy
QUOTE(mountain @ Mon 15 Dec 2003 01:13 PM)
wink.gif ammonia is also released from their gills


hey, first time i hearing this. reliable bo?
mountain
i think its thru respiratory reaction .. or is it i confused with something else.. haha.. tongue.gif read too much ..
square_guy
QUOTE(mountain @ Mon 15 Dec 2003 06:10 PM)
i think its thru respiratory reaction .. or is it i confused with something else.. haha..  tongue.gif read too much ..

no no no, this is interesting. does anyone else ever come across this?
mountain
i quote this from a website

QUOTE
What we often forget or may even be unaware of is that the gills perform another function necessary for the health of fish. This function is excretion, the process of eliminating the break-down products of protein digestion, mostly in the form of nitrogen compounds. The most important of these waste products takes the form of ammonia, a toxic substance to fish even at very low concentrations. In other animals, it is the kidneys that excrete nitrogenous wastes, in the form of urine


this is the link from a yahoooo search

click-me.gif Fish Reference From Animal Networks
square_guy
excellent article! dunno abt the rest of u but i learn a lot frm this article biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Cortisol is the other hormone released by the adrenal tissue in response to stress. Studies on various fish indicate that cortisol levels increase rapidly and dramatically when fish are crowded together or handled. Cortisol, like epinephrine, can also produce many physiological changes. If prolonged, these changes can lead to metabolic imbalances, such as increases in protein breakdown and elevated thyroid hormones, which can further increase the demands on the body, leading to biochemical exhaustion.


anyone saw this? remember one of the discussion abt fish releasing hormones to suppress immune system of surrounding fishes? this seems to be a more plausible explanation.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(square_guy @ Tue 16 Dec 2003 01:11 PM)
anyone saw this? remember one of the discussion abt fish releasing hormones to suppress immune system of surrounding fishes? this seems to be a more plausible explanation.

I did, but I didn't co-related it with the crowded tank hormone thing thoery. Thanks for pointing it out. To me, it once again shows frequent massive water change is important even if your test kit results are favourable as there are more things in the water then just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
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