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YLD
This topic was splitted from here.
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Here's the pics. Im not too confidence how much can this pics tell. Anyway pls shoot.....

Start off with pics before feeding MP.


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YLD
more before pics...........


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YLD
after feeding MP for abt 3 weeks......


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supertop
QUOTE(YLD @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 12:08 am)
after feeding MP for abt 3 weeks......
*


The hood is covering the eyes already....
YLD
more after effect.....


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YLD
last one.......

the pics only some some headgrowth, the size(refer to width and depth, not length) improvement is not indicated on the pics.

Im not comfortable with the pics due to the inconsistent shooting angles.


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The Matrix
QUOTE(YLD @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 12:23 am)
last one.......

the pics only some some headgrowth, the size(refer to width and depth, not length) improvement is not indicated on the pics.

Im not comfortable with the pics due to the inconsistent shooting angles.
*


in your opinions, what are the improvements ?

How long has this fish exposed to market prawn feed ?

HB, think this thread split away. Can keep a better records in a separate thread. very interesting.
YLD
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 12:35 am)
in your opinions, what are the improvements ?

How long has this fish exposed to market prawn feed ?

HB, think this thread split away. Can keep a better records in a separate thread. very interesting.
*


Repeating some history........

When i first bought this fish, its main diet is lionhead pellet and occassional frozen blood worm. After abt 6weeks no significant/almost zero growth in size or any improvement in headgrowth. There is even this period where i noticed that one of its eyes is starting to bulge out of the headgrowth, some worry abt stunt growth.

Upon advice from a friend, start to introduce MP. This fellow really like MP and seem to digest better. So keep feed MP for abt 3 weeks. Then see the clear improvement in size (bulk up) and slightly more headgrowth, especially round the eye.

After QT, fish has been staying in 4ft tank with at least 50 litres water per fish.
desireless
What effects does MP has on the ranchu's body? Is it more bulky? And how about the colour? I asked because the previous owner of one of my fishes feed 90% MP and 10% pellets. The ranchus that he has are bulky and slender. Not those fat fat round round type. None of them have sagging tummies. Which is really cool.

But the headgrowth of the fishes are not so majestic though. And the colour seems to be fading...
HappyBuddha
I've combined two pics and made a easier to compare before and after pic.

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YLD
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 3:01 am)
What effects does MP has on the ranchu's body? Is it more bulky? And how about the colour? I asked because the previous owner of one of my fishes feed 90% MP and 10% pellets. The ranchus that he has are bulky and slender. Not those fat fat round round type. None of them have sagging tummies. Which is really cool.

But the headgrowth of the fishes are not so majestic though. And the colour seems to be fading...
*


yes its more bulky. looking at the curve of the fish i dun think it can grow much in length, and from what i observed the width/thickness of the fish and its belly depth has bulk up.

also pls correct me if im wrong, i think fishy with smooth curve has a better chance of have a slender and yet bulky/full body, as for one with a "problemtic" curve would have a more rounded body. Y? if the back growth is restricted and "good" food is fed where can this fish growth?....................

colour has been more or less like this since day one, of course it is not as bright as shown is pic. so far this fellow not exposed to green water or any colour enhancer food.

of course i dun say this fellow has very good headgrowth, at least im quite happy with it. if you look closely you do find improvement in headgrowth , particularly around the eyes.

btw does a majestic headgrowth means eyes been cover up?
Seacucumber
can notice some colour improvemnet, better headgrowth and slight bulk.....
The Matrix
QUOTE(YLD @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 7:52 am)
yes its more bulky. looking at the curve of the fish i dun think it can grow much in length, and from what i observed the width/thickness of the fish and its belly depth has bulk up.
*


your results indicated that 6 weeks on market prawn feeding will

- improve the width/thickness of the fish
- bulk up the belly depth
- no improvement in color
- improve in wen growth

Anything else changed or unchange ? photo hard to see ...

how about the size ? did it grow a tiny bit ?

hmmm ... since u got a 4ft tank, and min 50L per fish, u got another 2-4 fish more in your tank. Any improvement in these few ? Or similar type of observation ?
nobnoba
This thread is very very interesting and informative, especially for me, since i have plenty of mp.
From the pic, i can conclude for sure that there is:
-Headgrowth
-body bulkier.
i cant conclude on the color though, because it depends on the lights when the pic took place as well.

YLD, how do u feed the mp? chopped to pieces? or just peeled them and throw them into the water and let the fish nibble them?
how about the poos? what color and is it chunky?
leogon
I don't think that it can be concluded from the above experiment that MP can do so many things so well.
As Ranchus grow, with reasonable rearing skill, it would be natural for growth in the head, body and colour intensity.
It may be that MP is really good but it'll take a more controlled studies to verify...
Maybe someone might want to try selecting several ranchus from the same cohort and rear them under different water parameters and food types to do a comparitive study?
Then, once and for all, we can see whether Hikari, JRL, Chroma, BW, MP etc are actually any different or are they all the same in terms of quality but are just using price/packing/reputation to hood wink all of us!
So, HB, want to help the rest of us?? wink.gif
mrchoco
does it pollute the water badly?
YLD
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:47 am)
your results indicated that 6 weeks on market prawn feeding will

- improve the width/thickness of the fish
- bulk up the belly depth
- no improvement in color
- improve in wen growth

Anything else changed or unchange ? photo hard to see ...

how about the size ? did it grow a tiny bit ?

hmmm ... since u got a 4ft tank, and min 50L per fish, u got another 2-4 fish more in your tank. Any improvement in these few ? Or similar type of observation ?
*


Around 3 weeks not 6.

I dun really notice in colour improvement.

No other changes noted at this point of time.

For the rest of the occuptants:
-the other ranchu grow in body size but head growth insignificant improvement.
-dragon eye: show significant growth
-no records for above claims

The results may varies and not generic. But im quite confidence Mp will improve general growth.
YLD
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 1:04 pm)


YLD, how do u feed the mp? chopped to pieces? or just peeled them and throw them into the water and let the fish nibble them?
how about the poos? what color and is it chunky?
*



Deshell the MP, wash THOROUGHLY, cut into small bits, store in freezer.

During feeding, I simply throw bits by bits into the water. Jus take care dun throw too much as goldfish is very greedy.

Didnt really take note of the poos.
YLD
QUOTE(mrchoco @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 7:49 pm)
does it pollute the water badly?
*


nitrite and ammonia tests all within "healthy" range, except nitrate is around 30ppm.
YLD
QUOTE(leogon @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 2:01 pm)
I don't think that it can be concluded from the above experiment that MP can do so many things so well.
As Ranchus grow, with reasonable rearing skill, it would be natural for growth in the head, body and colour intensity.
*



I have no doubts this so called experiments is not very accurate or convincing.

Bro leogon, if you could spare some time pls read post#8. I mentioned some worries of stunt growth.

Also, i wonder between 1)MP, live tubiflex and blood worm, frozen blood worm and tofu and 2)all type of dry food such as pellets. which class is more digestable by the goldfish?
Seacucumber
why dun u try those small freshwater prawns?? just catch, deshell and feed....
sheringam
QUOTE(g-string @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:10 pm)
why dun u try those small freshwater prawns?? just catch, deshell and feed....
*


u mean catch those alive small feeder prawns, deshell and feed? shiok.gif

can buy those frozen prawns which are already deshell to feed the goldfish?
leogon
QUOTE(YLD @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 8:28 pm)
I have no doubts this so called experiments is not very accurate or convincing.

Bro leogon, if you could spare some time pls read post#8. I mentioned some worries of stunt growth.

Also, i wonder between 1)MP, live tubiflex and blood worm, frozen blood worm and tofu and 2)all type of dry food such as pellets. which class is more digestable by the goldfish?
*


I find it very perplexing trying to figure out which of the commonly used foods is actually the best.
I am sure that each of the different types of pellets, bloodworms, tubifex, flakes etc have their own success stories and I remember reading a thread about a bro using Hikari Lionhead and his ranchu grew at a phenomenal rate and looked very healthy. A prominent American Ranchu breeder has also given it his thumbs up. On the other hand, some others have totally given up on it saying it tends to result in bloated stomachs and will only use Hikari wheatgerm as it appears to be more digestible altho I think the protein content is lower so it is often combined with BW which supposedly has a high protein content ( esp in BKK ). On the other hand, there has been some literature that claims frozen BW contain mainly water and that the protein content may not be as high as claimed. I really do not know how accurate this info is but I do know that BW should be in the goldfish diet ( but not exclusively) as they are probably good for intestinal function and to avoid constipation. I know of Discus breeders who feed frozen BW only and guess what - some curse/swear that BW makes their fish thin and not grow to a big size while others end up with gigantic discus. Again, difficult to verify as one is not there all the time to watch and also there are too many variables which could have affected the outcome.
There - are you sufficiently confused???
I still think it is best to feed a few different types of food to allow the fish to benefit from varied and balanced diet.
Chinmo
can try hirkari frozen MYSIS.. it's a small shrimps, clean and steralized. Maybe dif goldfish have dif requirements? just like humans.... got tall, short, fat, thin, big size, small size..... just ensure they get mix diet for healthy growth can liao, tongue.gif jus my point of view tongue.gif
YLD
QUOTE(leogon @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:15 pm)
I find it very perplexing trying to figure out which of the commonly used foods is actually the best.
I am sure that each of the different types of pellets, bloodworms, tubifex, flakes etc have their own success stories and I remember reading a thread about a bro using Hikari Lionhead and his ranchu grew at a phenomenal rate and looked very healthy. A prominent American Ranchu breeder has also given it his thumbs up. On the other hand, some others have totally given up on it saying it tends to result in bloated stomachs and will only use Hikari wheatgerm as it appears to be more digestible altho I think the protein content is lower so it is often combined with BW which supposedly has a high protein content ( esp in BKK ). On the other hand, there has been some literature that claims frozen BW contain mainly water and that the protein content may not be as high as claimed. I really do not know how accurate this info is but I do know that BW should be in the goldfish diet ( but not exclusively) as they are probably good for  intestinal function and to avoid constipation. I know of Discus breeders who feed frozen BW only and guess what - some curse/swear that BW makes their fish thin and not grow to a big size while others end up with gigantic discus. Again, difficult to verify as one is not there all the time to watch and also there are too many variables which could have affected the outcome.
There - are you sufficiently confused???
I still think it is best to feed a few different types of food to allow the fish to benefit from varied and balanced diet.
*


Good summary. Thank you.

I always think balance diet is ideal until Bro Geert mentioned he feed his TV ranchu with JRL only. With 3 weeks of feeding MP to my very slow growing ranchu, it bulked up significantly. Im starting to wonder perhaps fishy themselves have their "preferance" food or their system is able to digest certain food better???

Pls dun get me wrong im not saying balance diet is not good or whatever. Jus that my very slow growing ranchu did not directly benefited from this diet.
desireless
One more question. Have you been feeding MP EXCLUSIVELY? Meaning, no other food but MP only to achieve that result.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(leogon @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 2:01 pm)
So, HB, want to help the rest of us?? wink.gif
*

I'd be happy to (no pun intended) especially to settle it once and for all. But the task is daunting as you mentioned there are too many variables. I'll just try to reduce them as much as I can.

The problem is right now I only have a school of Ryukins from the same spawn to pick out and run the experiement on. However, I'm sure most bros here wants to know if MP can increase the size of ranchu's headgrowth/cheeks but Ryukin does not have this much sought after characteristics.

So I'll have to put the experiment on hold until I have a new spawn of Ranchus.
HappyBuddha
I propose anyone interested to just give MP a try on their own ranchus. Afterall, there seems to be some benefits as mentioned by YLD yet no mention of any harmful side-effects. Just take some pics of the fish now and compare them later. The result won't be conclusive scientifically per se, but at least you will know if MP is good for your setup/stock.
YLD
QUOTE(desireless @ Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:32 am)
One more question. Have you been feeding MP EXCLUSIVELY? Meaning, no other food but MP only to achieve that result.
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around 2-3 times of MP feeding for early morning and night. The rest of feeds are lionhead pellets. As i mentioned before, the lionhead has very very little effect on this particular ranchu.
YLD
QUOTE(g-string @ Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:10 pm)
why dun u try those small freshwater prawns?? just catch, deshell and feed....
*


I find it too troublesome as these live prawn u mentioned, i presumed, are not able to survive too long. Who know this live prawn might provide even better protein.
The Matrix
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed, 08 Sep 2004 6:19 am)
I'd be happy to (no pun intended) especially to settle it once and for all.  But the task is daunting as you mentioned there are too many variables.  I'll just try to reduce them as much as I can.

The problem is right now I only have a school of Ryukins from the same spawn to pick out and run the experiement on.  However, I'm sure most bros here wants to know if MP can increase the size of ranchu's headgrowth/cheeks but Ryukin does not have this much sought after characteristics.

So I'll have to put the experiment on hold until I have a new spawn of Ranchus.
*


why not hb ? see it can improve the hump and the butterfly tail or not ...

bw, GOOD !!!!! shiok.gif

if looking at the packet of food, we see fish meal, shrimp meal, fish meal ... blah blah blah ... last time i tried kun-ning and kam-mong fish grind for my discus fries. kekekeke ... add carrot lah, spinach lah, banana, garlic and even those GNC multi-vitamin pills. Rojak lah. But those processed dried food also rojak mah.

I heard of pple using lobster eggs for color enhancement for discus leh. And those White Crane color enhancer as well. si mi CR-5-6-7 ... very luan ah ...
nobnoba
people,
i also read that BW is actually just 9-12% of protein content. the rest is water. can anyone verify this?
CyberET
issn't human body 70% water? hmm...
desireless
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:50 pm)
people,
i also read that BW is actually just 9-12% of protein content. the rest is water. can anyone verify this?
*

You'll have to take into account of the water content of the BW also. Got it? wink.gif

Anyway YLD, would you consider doing a little change to your experiment such that you feed the fish with only MP for a month or something? Only then the conclusion would be fair.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:50 pm)
people,
i also read that BW is actually just 9-12% of protein content. the rest is water. can anyone verify this?
*

Yo! You miss the followig post that attempted to explain it.

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...432&#entry14432
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Wed, 08 Sep 2004 3:35 pm)
why not hb ? see it can improve the hump and the butterfly tail or not ...
*

But then I'll have to explain how to tell the diff in the tail's changes. wink.gif

Changes in headgrowth is easily observed.
YLD
QUOTE(desireless @ Thu, 09 Sep 2004 2:00 am)
You'll have to take into account of the water content of the BW also. Got it?  wink.gif

Anyway YLD, would you consider doing a little change to your experiment such that you feed the fish with only MP for a month or something? Only then the conclusion would be fair.
*


Experiment started liao!!!
mountain
prob u can detail down the frequency and qty of water change plus yur filtration method also .. that would just abt complete the stats..
YLD
QUOTE(mountain @ Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:56 pm)
prob u can detail down the frequency and qty of water change plus yur filtration method also .. that would just abt complete the stats..
*



that is constant and will remains so.........kekekee!!!

water change: once a week at night
Amount of change: up to 80%
Filtration: Internal over and underflow systems plus 2 sponge filter.
YLD
Some updates......

pic taken abt 2 weeks ago, after 3 weeks of MP.

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YLD
more pic..........

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articguardian
It looks so cute!!! I think it has certainly bulked up. BUt I won't want to feed my goldfish with mealworms. Mealworms are too scary...YUCKS!
articguardian
you know in the second picture, it looks almost shy, you know with the hood covering its eyes and all...
RanchuGOD
What is the result of this test? There is a small group of hobbyists I know who use market prawns. But I myself will not reccommend it as there is no scientific proof that fish can take in the nutrient in the meat. And isn't pellets cheaper? Hikari Lionhead and Chroma will be good enough.
YLD
QUOTE(RanchuGOD @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 6:29 pm)
What is the result of this test? There is a small group of hobbyists I know who use market prawns. But I myself will not reccommend it as there is no scientific proof that fish can take in the nutrient in the meat. And isn't pellets cheaper? Hikari Lionhead and Chroma will be good enough.
*



Please read earlier posts.

Is there any scientific proof that the fish can take in all the nutrients in the pellets?

BTW, im not going for patent or whatsoever, this is just a trial and im just sharing my experiences. Im just having fun!!!
RanchuGOD
QUOTE(YLD @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 7:38 pm)
Please read earlier posts.

Is there any scientific proof that the fish can take in all the nutrients in the pellets?

BTW, im not going for patent or whatsoever, this is just a trial and im just sharing my experiences. Im just having fun!!!
*

To put it in an amatuer way, if there's no proof that fish can take in the nutrients in pellets, I don't see why pellets are so preferred over so many other types of "things that goldfishes eat". They will eat almost anything edible.

I am just curious how is the result to this trial. Care to update on the fish now? Have you been feeding prawn to this fish exclusively?
YLD
QUOTE(RanchuGOD @ Wed, 03 Nov 2004 6:42 pm)
To put it in an amatuer way, if there's no proof that fish can take in the nutrients in pellets, I don't see why pellets are so preferred over so many other types of "things that goldfishes eat". They will eat almost anything edible.

I am just curious how is the result to this trial. Care to update on the fish now? Have you been feeding prawn to this fish exclusively?
*


I do not think any hobbyists have any scientific proof to say that any particular kind of food is the best for the fish. Perhaps pellet manufacturer has proof- but is it really that important for hobbyist?

I guess pellet is common cos it is cheap, easy to store, provide general nutrients and even can be fed through auto feeder-how convenient!

For your 2nd paragraph, pls start reading from page one.
RanchuGOD
QUOTE(YLD @ Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:11 am)
I do not think any hobbyists have any scientific proof to say that any particular kind of food is the best for the fish. Perhaps pellet manufacturer has proof- but is it really that important for hobbyist?

I guess pellet is common cos it is cheap, easy to store, provide general nutrients and even can be fed through auto feeder-how convenient!

For  your 2nd paragraph, pls start reading from page one.
*

I don't know about you but it is of course important for serious hobbyists. I, for one, am very particular on what I feed my fishes. I have personally visited some Thai and Jap masters and feeding is one part which I paid most attention to. Prawn is never a sole food for goldfishes. It is only part of (maybe less than 5%) a complete fish diet. Pellets on the other hand are more all-rounded. Maybe you can see the wens grow a little over a period of one month, but the fish will miss out on other vitamins. It is like a person knowing vitamin C is good for himself and keep taking only that and he miss out on other vitamins.

Benefits of live frog and prawn is but housewives' tales to serious hobbyists of goldfish for a long time.
GF Lover
QUOTE(RanchuGOD @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 2:22 am)
I don't know about you but it is of course important for serious hobbyists. I, for one, am very particular on what I feed my fishes. I have personally visited some Thai and Jap masters and feeding is one part which I paid most attention to. Prawn is never a sole food for goldfishes. It is only part of (maybe less than 5%) a complete fish diet. Pellets on the other hand are more all-rounded. Maybe you can see the wens grow a little over a period of one month, but the fish will miss out on other vitamins. It is like a person knowing vitamin C is good for himself and keep taking only that and he miss out on other vitamins.

Benefits of live frog and prawn is but housewives' tales to serious hobbyists of goldfish for a long time.
*
Maybe you can share which master breeder you have visited? It will give us a better idea of your statement.
YLD
QUOTE(RanchuGOD @ Fri, 05 Nov 2004 2:22 am)
I don't know about you but it is of course important for serious hobbyists. I, for one, am very particular on what I feed my fishes. I have personally visited some Thai and Jap masters and feeding is one part which I paid most attention to. Prawn is never a sole food for goldfishes. It is only part of (maybe less than 5%) a complete fish diet. Pellets on the other hand are more all-rounded. Maybe you can see the wens grow a little over a period of one month, but the fish will miss out on other vitamins. It is like a person knowing vitamin C is good for himself and keep taking only that and he miss out on other vitamins.

Benefits of live frog and prawn is but housewives' tales to serious hobbyists of goldfish for a long time.
*



For the sack of experiment, the fish has been fed on solely prawns. Prawn is not the sole diet on a regular basis.

No one is saying pellet is bad or no good. I agreed there are all rounded food but can anyone proof that it is suitable for every fish??? I showed result that this particular fish of mine has very very slow development when taking pellet. You might not agree with me and that is fine- anyway i dun sell prawn kekeke!!!

Btw, which non-serious hobbyist would cut up the prawn into small bits and defrost it before feeding??? Kekeke!!!

If one never try, whatever housewife tales will remain so.

Have fun!!!
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