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RafflesGold Forums > Discussion Area > Green Water, Filtration and Tank Setup
HappyBuddha
Never ever whatsoever turn off aeration to your intensely green water.

After cleaning the airpump last evening, I didn't reconnect thinking it won't hurt. Afterall, I never see my fishes gasp for air. I don't even know if it is really necessary to aerate that tub.

Both fishes (a pair of Oranda that I have not shown anyone) died this morning.

cry.gif

Just leave the darn thing running at night no matter what!!! mad2.gif

Oh well... can buy new fishes....
mountain
ohmy.gif yur goldfish fatality rate under green water is darn high bro HB.. think u top the chart liao ... wink.gif
btw, CNY coming soon.. guess prize is going to rise.. grab them early dud.
HappyBuddha
Yeah man. First the GnG babies. 4 dead.

Now... KNN, two orandas died.

The tub's Fengshui no good ah.

You know what? Coincidently both disaster happened when I delayed changing the water a day. It's not the direct cause, but contributed to it.

And of course... both times... were my fault.

cry.gif

If only someone could invent an InfraGreen lamp for me to light up and inspect the tub I could have rescued the fishes.

I bet daniel is shaking his head after reading this mishap. Afterall, he lost a lot of fishes last time when there was a block out at home and the pumps stopped working.

Read this and be forewared ... dun play play with the air pump.
mountain
read a lot about fatalities from electrical black outs to damaged pumps..
wat to do?? we cannot fixed a UPS, not economically sustainable, how about
a mini DIY ferry wheel tat runs on battery to cause water disturbance like those prawn farms, or a siphoning rain bar??
caster
This is wat I do

Pump A (With backup battery) Pump B (normal)
Two outlet to tank A & B each Two outlet to tank A & B each

*Pump A with backup battery can last 10hrs when Power Failure occur

*Pump B normal pump

-In the scenario if power failure, Pump A will automatically switch to battery mode and will work for at 10hrs.

-If either pump fail, the other pump will still be working.

Unless Singapore have power failure for more than 10hrs or both of my pump breaks down together.... my tank should still have at least one air stone working.

Just Sharing
smile.gif
mountain
QUOTE(caster @ Mon 15 Dec 2003 11:22 AM)
This is wat I do

Pump A (With backup battery)          Pump B (normal)
Two outlet to tank A & B each        Two outlet to tank A & B each

*Pump A with backup battery can last 10hrs when Power Failure occur

*Pump B normal pump

-In the scenario if power failure, Pump A will automatically switch to battery mode and will work for at 10hrs.

-If either pump fail, the other pump will still be working.

Unless Singapore have power failure for more than 10hrs or both of my pump breaks down together.... my tank should still have at least one air stone working.

Just Sharing
smile.gif

i assume tats a AC/Dc airpump. what brand are u using and how much does it cost? how many outlets does it have??
caster
wah!... brand.... not sure.... bot at C328 for $75...Made in China... but I am impress with the build quality..with variable control, 2 outlet, very quiet... The backup battery is using sealed lead acid battery similar to those found in SLT.

I think the charging is base on Delta V => Voltage detection, so there is good possiblility that u can buy bigger cap battery in SLT and increase the backup duration to doubling it or tripling it.
Seacucumber
bro Buddha,
u afraid of oxygen burn right??
actually its more on the intensity of your green...not whether to aerate the water or not....

no matter wat, use a single tube aeration 24hrs a day....
if you change water weekly, and control the duration of your MH light, your fish wont get burn....
even slight oxygen burn will be easily cured after changing water... laugh.gif

hmm....actually for condition of air pump, must check carefully everymonth....
i check my airpump everytime i change battery for my autofeeder..just to play safe...
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(g-string @ Mon 15 Dec 2003 11:41 PM)
no matter wat, use a single tube aeration 24hrs a day....
if you change water weekly, and control the duration of your MH light, your fish wont get burn....
even slight oxygen burn will be easily cured after changing water...  laugh.gif

Thanks andy, you just answered a big question mark in my mind for the largest time; how fast can oxygen burnt be cured.

Frankly my fishes do not suffer from it, implying the DO level during the day isn't too high. Conversely, however, if i forget to turn on the pump (yeah, I don't run it during the day), the fishes would sometimes (usually day 6 onwards) gasp for air around mid-night.

Sigh. I service my airpump regularly; just that this time i decided to play punk and didn't turn it on.

Sigh.
square_guy
erhemm, just a tot on O2 burn...

borrowing the link from mountain,

Mountain's link

QUOTE
Under favorable conditions, fish can remove about 85 to 90 percent of the dissolved oxygen from water passing over their gills. Under conditions of low oxygen or high temperatures, this efficiency may fall to 10 to 20 percent or lower.


could this mean if we put a heater into the green water and maintain higher temp, we can reduce risk of O2 burn? of course how high is high enough is a mystery
mountain
err.. i think u mis-interpreted the paragraph..
let me try .. i think wat it means is about the efficiency about gill functions..
if u dump a heater in.. the gill will need to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen into the blood stream. tats why in hospital tank where there is always a heater + salt .. and finally should be "Highly Aerated" as recommended by all the medication instructions..the highly aerated condition is to compensate the ratio . ..
then for green water, bro HB fish is really struggling for oxygen liao, there is prob not much dissolved oxygen left due to the mass of algea... same for introducing medication into clear water rite? the medication will dissolved with water reducing the "space" for oxygen .. so .. critical mass compete against a couple of duds.. think tats why his duds lost..
alamak..w t fish i mumbling abt.. it still doesn't answer oxygen burn vs optimum oxygen level yuk.gif
Seacucumber
ok lets clear this doubt step by step....

first of all talking about oxygen burn, it only happens during daytime....nighttime we can forget abt this issue...

we all should know how those bloody Japs control the intensity of the greenwater..
bamboo shades etc...
but WHY??
we all know greenwater is good for our fishes....why must control??

main reason is that if the green is too intense, which in another words means too much of those erm.....(wat do u call it?) algae....during photosynthesis, they produce damn hell a lot of oxygen....together PLUS the oxygen from your aeration, then your fish will get oxygen burn....

i had experienced before, when my gwater turn "beyond" peasoup green, one of my fish got some little air bubbles in their fins....i KANCHEONG! called Alvin immediately....told him every single detail and all i get is a casual answer...

"change water lor...., your water too green liao..."

the bottomline still lies with how well you can control the shade of green....

* sometimes during the hotter days about 2 months back, i actually had to change my gwater twice a week becos by the 3rd day, the green is already too intense liao....
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(g-string @ Tue 16 Dec 2003 09:13 PM)
* sometimes during the hotter days about 2 months back, i actually had to change my gwater twice a week becos by the 3rd day, the green is already too intense liao....

As you know I rely on artificial lighting to control the "sunlight". Event then, sometimes the green gets very intense on the 5th day yet I only change water on the 7th day no matter what. That's silly, especially if I were to KIV another day which is when disaster usually strikes. mad.gif

From now onwards... I'll change water on the 7th day or whenever the green is too intense.
square_guy
QUOTE(mountain @ Tue 16 Dec 2003 04:25 PM)
err.. i think u mis-interpreted the paragraph..
let me try .. i think wat it means is about the efficiency about gill functions..
if u dump a heater in.. the gill will need to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen into the blood stream.

sheeesh mountain, i can't really decipher your post except for the following which makes sense laugh.gif

on second thoughts, how can the gills be able to differentiate how much harder to work to get the same amount of O2 into the blood stream? if that's the case we would not have O2 burn at all as the gills should know when to stop. tio bo?
square_guy
QUOTE(g-string @ Tue 16 Dec 2003 09:13 PM)
together PLUS the oxygen from your aeration, then your fish will get oxygen burn....


i did posted sometime ago in AF with respect to this particular statement. i don't agree with you, but unfortunately i also dun have anytime concrete to back up my beliefs. here goes...

aeration is to restore balance of gas dissolved in water. eg at night, aeration will expel excess CO2 in green water. so going along this line of reasoning, during day aeration will expel excess O2. since we are talking about balance, night aeration will also probably introduce O2 back into green water since O2 wil be depleted by both fishes and algae. conversely day aeration will thus also introduce CO2 back into the green water since CO2 is depleted by algae.

and bringing this logic further on, day aeration will probably improve photosynthesis of algae (up to the limit of available food source) since it introduce essential CO2. maybe can experiment to see whether green water will turn green faster with or without day aeration.

do i make sense? u guys can bomb me now tongue.gif

other than too much O2 in intense green, the intensity could cause algae to start dying as light can penetrate as well.
smgutie
QUOTE(square_guy @ Wed 17 Dec 2003 09:46 AM)
since we are talking about balance, night aeration will also probably introduce O2 back into green water since O2 wil be depleted by both fishes and algae. conversely day aeration will thus also introduce CO2 back into the green water since CO2 is depleted by algae.

and bringing this logic further on, day aeration will probably improve photosynthesis of algae (up to the limit of available food source) since it introduce essential CO2. maybe can experiment to see whether green water will turn green faster with or without day aeration.


I thought you can't get CO2 back into the water unless you

1. dissolve pure CO2 into the water by pumping it in water
2. have Dissolved Organic Componds (DOCs) evolve into CO2 (cant remember by what process, sorry)

water turbulance defeates the purpose of CO2 in the water because i heard it only releases it.

I may be wrong, this is just what I learned from readings on growing water plants. Please correct me if I am wrong.
square_guy
QUOTE(smgutie @ Wed 17 Dec 2003 11:52 AM)
I thought you can't get CO2 back into the water unless you

1. dissolve pure CO2 into the water by pumping it in water
2. have Dissolved Organic Componds (DOCs) evolve into CO2 (cant remember by what process, sorry)

water turbulance defeates the purpose of CO2 in the water because i heard it only releases it.


some link which states aeration works both way for O2 and CO2. atmospheric equilibrium is the key.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/airstone.html

and from Hobbit in AF

QUOTE
HI square_guy,

As I've mentioned, dissolved O2 concentration and CO2 concentration is independent of each other.

What you should take into consideration is that there's always an equilibrium betw, atmospheric O2 and dissolved O2.

Theoretically, this can happen in the following situation:

1. if the atmospheric O2 drops, O2 will then come from the water to replace it. Or that

2. if O2 in the water is saturated, it'll dissipate into the air.

For the first instance, it'll never happened in real situation. It is only hypothetical.

For the second instance, it almost never occur in a bare tank situation, as aeration deployed by us will seldom saturate the water with O2.

However, in a planted tank that is actively photosynthesising, the water is saturated with O2 eventually, as )2 is a by pdt of phtotosynthesis. Thus, you can see oxygen bubbles rising to the surface, in a well planted aquaria.

Then again, saturation point of O2 is also dependent on the water temp. At 15 degrees celcius, the saturated concentration would be about 11.3ppm, and at 25 degrees celcius, it is around 8.1 ppm.

Hope to have cleared your doubts.

Cheers,

Kenny



see bold. 2 points to note
a) aeration drives off saturated O2 in water.
b) at higher temp, O2 saturation concentration is lower.

i think this supports my earlier post that aeration and higher temp will reduce risk of O2 burn, since at lower temp the water can hold less O2 and O2 will also hit saturation point faster. upon saturation O2 will be driven out by aeration.
Seacucumber
yikes!
this topic is getting too cheem for a simple minded person like me....
cry.gif
LASERGUY
QUOTE(square_guy @ Wed 17 Dec 2003 12:38 PM)
some link which states aeration works both way for O2 and CO2. atmospheric equilibrium is the key.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/airstone.html

and from Hobbit in AF



see bold. 2 points to note
a) aeration drives off saturated O2 in water.
b) at higher temp, O2 saturation concentration is lower.

i think this supports my earlier post that aeration and higher temp will reduce risk of O2 burn, since at lower temp the water can hold less O2 and O2 will also hit saturation point faster. upon saturation O2 will be driven out by aeration.

Eh.... don't know there is Lord of the Ring character in AF leh..... biggrin.gif
mountain
AF also have a bugger who can shoot arrow chun chun like an elf .. think his name is Aero-King bag.gif
CyberET
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 17 Dec 2003 07:00 AM)
As you know I rely on artificial lighting to control the "sunlight". Event then, sometimes the green gets very intense on the 5th day yet I only change water on the 7th day no matter what. That's silly, especially if I were to KIV another day which is when disaster usually strikes.  mad.gif

From now onwards... I'll change water on the 7th day or whenever the green is too intense.

theres a difference between's andy's and your artifical lighting.. sunlight is way stronger in light penetration compared to PL lighting.. so i don't think you would experience O2 burn easily.. however when your green is too intense.. i believe there issn't sufficient light penetration, and the algae may start to collaspe.. my opinion.. smile.gif
CyberET
QUOTE(square_guy @ Wed 17 Dec 2003 09:46 AM)
i did posted sometime ago in AF with respect to this particular statement. i don't agree with you, but unfortunately i also dun have anytime concrete to back up my beliefs. here goes...

aeration is to restore balance of gas dissolved in water. eg at night, aeration will expel excess CO2 in green water. so going along this line of reasoning, during day aeration will expel excess O2. since we are talking about balance, night aeration will also probably introduce O2 back into green water since O2 wil be depleted by both fishes and algae. conversely day aeration will thus also introduce CO2 back into the green water since CO2 is depleted by algae.

and bringing this logic further on, day aeration will probably improve photosynthesis of algae (up to the limit of available food source) since it introduce essential CO2. maybe can experiment to see whether green water will turn green faster with or without day aeration.

do i make sense? u guys can bomb me now  tongue.gif

other than too much O2 in intense green, the intensity could cause algae to start dying as light can penetrate as well.

imho.. day aeration also expel excess O2 & CO2 as well smile.gif
lesser aeration during the day seems to turn my water intense green water wink.gif
CyberET
QUOTE(mountain @ Tue 16 Dec 2003 04:25 PM)
err.. i think u mis-interpreted the paragraph..
let me try .. i think wat it means is about the efficiency about gill functions..
if u dump a heater in.. the gill will need to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen into the blood stream. tats why in hospital tank where there is always a heater + salt .. and finally  should be "Highly Aerated" as recommended by all the medication instructions..the highly aerated condition is to compensate the ratio . ..
then for green water, bro HB fish is really struggling for oxygen liao, there is prob not much dissolved oxygen left due to the mass of algea... same for introducing medication into clear water rite? the medication will dissolved with water reducing the "space" for oxygen .. so .. critical mass compete against a couple of duds.. think tats why his duds lost..
alamak..w t fish i mumbling abt.. it still doesn't answer oxygen burn vs optimum oxygen level yuk.gif

highly aerated normally means the medication uses O2..
HB fish struggling for oxygen at night most prob due to suffocation as stocking level is too dense.. more organism per litre competing for oxygen.. either increase aeration during night or reduce stocking density
square_guy
QUOTE(CyberET @ Thu 18 Dec 2003 01:13 AM)
lesser aeration during the day seems to turn my water intense green water wink.gif

u mean earlier or later ??
square_guy
QUOTE(LASERGUY @ Wed 17 Dec 2003 06:06 PM)
Eh.... don't know there is Lord of the Ring character in AF leh.....  biggrin.gif

there are many hobbits in AF. in fact he is hobbit number 6003 laugh.gif
CyberET
QUOTE(square_guy @ Thu 18 Dec 2003 08:52 AM)
u mean earlier or later ??

earlier
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