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RafflesGold Forums > Discussion Area > Green Water, Filtration and Tank Setup
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supzfier
enlightened good.gif
iso7012003
Post splitted from here.

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Dear HappyBuddha,

"I dosed 2 g of baking soda to bring the pH up to 7.8"

Where to buy this baking soda that you used to bring up the PH level? Is it industrial use product or just the regular one that we can buy from supermarket?

Thanks beg2.gif beg2.gif
desireless
Hi,

Baking Soda is "Sodium BiCarbonate". Please read this thread for a better understanding of pH buffering.

In our country Singapore, we got it at a certain 'dried food' store chain called "Phoon Huat". I don't know about Hong Kong but I am sure this powder is easily available there too. Try those dried food stores that sells confectionary stuff (those you will need to bake cakes and stuffs) like vanilla powder, baking powder, as such. yes.gif
The Matrix
碳酸氢钠。又名小蘇打粉。

糕點制造商該有。慢慢搵啦。
iso7012003
Thanks a lot
Bandit
Hi,

Newbie hereafter reading the super long posting 4pages I still dont quite understand.

Hope some old birds can give me advice

Just started rearing goldfish this week. Configuration is as follow

2 feet tank, OHF (Dolphin brand pump CR8800), white filter mat'l bought at LFS, Cosmo surface skimmer, 6 med size oranda.

What's the definition of PH crash?
How to prevent PH crash?
What are the chances of goldfish survicing PH crash?
What should be administer to the goldfish who suffer the PH crash ordeal?

What's the definition of PH shock?
How to prevent PH shock?

Whats the definition of PH buffering?
Is PH buffering only applicable for Bio filtration?

Is it possible to setup BB on my OHF and how do I go abt doing it?
What is cannister? is it same as OHF but using different filtration?

Sorry for the long list of question.
jowy_ham
Me also newbie here, but would like to try answer your Qs so that I can learn as well ( Older bros here please and do correct me if I'm wrong tongue.gif ) and also gauge my understanding of pH buffering.

QUOTE
2 feet tank, OHF (Dolphin brand pump CR8800),  white filter mat'l bought at LFS, Cosmo surface skimmer, 6 med size oranda.[/

blush-big.gif , I do not know what is the standard dimension of tanks ( cos I'm using tubs tongue.gif ), but a calculation of a 2ft x 1ft x 2ft tank will only hold ~100L of water which is way below the recommended amount of water for 6 med size orandas. In other words, U are overstock !!!

The recommended amount of water per goldfish here is AT LEAST 50L per fish.

QUOTE
What's the definition of PH crash?
How to prevent PH crash?
What are the chances of goldfish survicing PH crash?
What should be administer to the goldfish who suffer the PH crash ordeal?

- pH crash is a sudden drop in pH ( maybe from 8 to 5/4 or even lower ) due to the lack of pH buffering.
- cannot answer your 2nd Q cos never experience it before good_very.gif ( and touchwood, dont want it to happen also ) but I think if the crash is not too bad ( meaning the drop is not too drastic ) and actions are taken immdiately to rectify the situation ( change water ), then the chances of surviving is higher.
- nothing, change water IMMEDIATELY

QUOTE
What's the definition of PH shock?
How to prevent PH shock?

- pH shock is the goldfish having to switch from 1 pH ( maybe from pH 5 ) to another pH within a short period of time ( to pH 8 ). Could be from higher to lower pH also.
- Gradually accustom your goldfish to the increase in pH. Maybe having some pH 5 water mixed with some pH 8 water ( balance out the pH abit ) then put the goldfish in this mid-range pH water for a while ( maybe 1/2 day to 1 day ) before releasing it in pH 8 water. <- jus my wild thinking tongue.gif

QUOTE
Whats the definition of PH buffering?
Is PH buffering only applicable for Bio filtration?

- pH buffering is to stablized the pH/reduce the amount of pH dropped over the days before the next water change.
- No, cos I know green water that some bros practice also needs pH buffering.

QUOTE
Is it possible to setup BB on my OHF and how do I go abt doing it?
What is cannister? is it same as OHF but using different filtration?

- Yes, why not. There are a few ways :
1. Buy expensive BB liquid and pour into your tank ( speed up the cycling process )
2. Bring some cycled media from another tank to your tank ( not recommended as disease might be brought over as well )
3. Do more often water changes and let the tank cycled itself ( maybe of instead once per week, change that to once every 3~4 days )

- A cannister is just another filteration system
- Yes

OK, old forumers/bros/masters, U guys can shoot me now tongue.gif but I newbie hor, dont shoot till i lie dead hor laugh.gif
desireless
>>2 feet tank, OHF (Dolphin brand pump CR8800), white filter mat'l bought at LFS, Cosmo surface skimmer, 6 med size oranda.
Too overstocked. And Orandas grow very fast. Get a bigger tank. Even 4-footer is too small for 6 orandas.

>> What's the definition of PH crash?
pH go down till below 7 to acidic area.
Simple summary: Ammonia at low pH becomes harmless ammonium which is harmless to your fishes. But when you perform partial water change, the traces of ammonium converts back to ammonia (which is lethal) and bring about ammonia poisoning to your fishes. Most of the time this process is fatal.

>> How to prevent PH crash?
Buffer your water with BS. You can sustain the same pH for a longer time. In simple word, locking the pH so that it doesn't swing much... for a longer time than with buffering.

>> What are the chances of goldfish survicing PH crash?
As little as zero. Lucky surviving ones will need TLC to recover.

>> What should be administer to the goldfish who suffer the PH crash ordeal?
TLC: Tender, Love & Care biggrin.gif. Put it in a QT tank with JYP and make sure you change water everyday.

>> What's the definition of PH shock?
You bring in a fish from another environment of pH 6 and put inside a new tank of pH8. Confirm pH shock.

>> How to prevent PH shock?
Need a pH pen to determine pH in both waters. Difference of +/- pH of 3 0.3 should still be ok.

>> Whats the definition of PH buffering?
Read and understand this thread thoroughly

>> Is PH buffering only applicable for Bio filtration?
Applicable but not only to. It is in fact applicable to any type of filtration used.

>> Is it possible to setup BB on my OHF and how do I go abt doing it?
Yes. Leaving the tank running for 2 weeks should be able to build enough BB to last. I don't do this as I am using Sponge filter and this is how I cycle them. Bro cpiw has a good thread on OHF:
http://www.RafflesGold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1901

>> What is cannister? is it same as OHF but using different filtration?
Those common Ehiem/Jebao filter are in canister form.

>> Sorry for the long list of question.
No problem. biggrin.gif
desireless
QUOTE(jowy_ham @ Fri, 04 Mar 2005 2:33 am)
...
OK, old forumers/bros/masters, U guys can shoot me now  tongue.gif but I newbie hor, dont shoot till i lie dead hor  laugh.gif
*


Very good! A Star!! good_very.gif
jowy_ham
Thank you, Thank you tongue.gif

Glad to know that most of my answers are almost correct after spending 1 yr in this forum laugh.gif
CP
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 04 Mar 2005 2:38 am)


>> How to prevent PH shock?
Need a pH pen to determine pH in both waters. Difference of +/- pH of 3 should still be ok.

*



Bro,
Do you mean 3 or 0.3?
+/- pH of 3 means pH 4 to pH 7 also OK. 1000 times acidity/alkalinity difference.
CyberET
hehehe.. pH 4.. fish almost dead liaoz
desireless
QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Fri, 04 Mar 2005 1:57 pm)
Bro,
Do you mean 3 or 0.3?
+/- pH of 3 means pH 4 to pH 7 also OK. 1000 times acidity/alkalinity difference.
*


Alamak IPB Image... too sleepy... yeah it is 0.3 not 3

At pH4.. not only die.. it becomes soured fish
CP
QUOTE(jowy_ham @ Fri, 04 Mar 2005 2:33 am)
Me also newbie here..........
*


Hoi, you member ID 147 consider newbie then I ID309 consider baby ah??

Jokes aside,this is one thread that i have read over and over again yet still cannot 100% comprehend.
So to all people new to this hobby dont be too alarmed if you cant digest all those kH, dKH, hard water, soft water, ammonia ammonium transition,total hardness,bla bla bla .........just remember to buffer your water.That all.
goldrush
I like you cpiw

remember what I post on the very first page of this thread

PLEASE BUFFER SO AS NOT TO SUFFER (LOSS)


regards

goldrush
CP
QUOTE(goldrush @ Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:20 am)
I like you cpiw
*


Oh NO!!!
I already have a loving wife,happy family and 3 children!! hysterical.gif
goldrush
Dear Newbies

On the subject of pH and what it has to do with my fish keeping?
Now first you don’t have to obtain a pHD to understand the basic concept.
Scientifically pH stands for the power of Hydrogen and it is use to express the degrees of acidity or alkalinity in the solution

Mathematically pH is a logarithmic scale from 0-14 with pH 0 to 6.99 classed as acidic,ph 7 as neutral and 7.01 to 14 as alkaline

Take water for example H2O
It actually contain equal amount of H and OH ions.Just bear in mind too much H ions are acidic and too much OH ions are alkaline
So in the event H ions are allowed to rise,the water becomes more acidic and pH drops.

Now because pH scale is logarithmic,each change of one pH unit is TEN fold( X10)
For example ,if pH drop from 7 to 6,it means the hydrogen concerntration and therefore acidity increases by 10.Supposedly pH drops from 7 to 5 then the acidity increases to 100 times!

Now the goldfish preference in pH would be in the range of 6.6 to 8.5 in order to maintain healthy growth ,tissue regeneration and reproduction, in short to survive
Now what makes pH drops have already been thoroughly explained in the previous thread so I’m not going to be drawn into this topic.But I would like to highlight one important aspect of pH and ammonia toxicity which is highly related and feared.

Now ammonia exist in 2 forms,freeNH3 and ionized NH4.Of these two free is regarded more harmful and the toxicity of ammonia is directly influenced by temperature and pH.

Now buffer is a chemical term to describe a substance of having the capability to maitain a steady pH.Now the pH will drop through usually insufficient partial water changes and increased carbon dioxide entry(respiration) which is usually buffered by the alkanity of water.Over a period of time,the carbonate which are natural buffer will be lost as it react with the acidic pollutants and form a new compound.This will cause a depletion of the buffering potential of the water,accompanied by unstable pH and affects eventually the health of your fish.
So if your basic filtration are inadequate to shoulder the biosystem requirement,we have to artificially introduce buffer in the form of NaHCO3(baking soda)to offset any discrepancy and maintain pH stability.Have you ever wonder while some LFS here have a female stocking filled with coral chips or its equivalent thrown in a limited filtration setup.That’s the reason.

In short pH is never a fixed value but continues to fluctuate in dynamism and measuring pH and monitoring its value gives us a rough guide of its alkalinity and indirectly the buffering capacity of your system

Hope you will understand its significant now good.gif good.gif good.gif

Regards

goldrush
Bandit
Thanks guys for the reply I'm begining to have a better understanding, but there are still some more queries.

1. If the used water in the tank is PH7, and the tap water measure is PH8 (assuming already buffer with 2 teaspoon of BS), how should I change the water without incurring PH shock to my goldfish, since the minimal shock is 0.3 or less.

2. Can BB built up inside my OHF, the white filtering foam if I change my water frequently but without changing or washing of the filter material for 2 mths.
ranchu8
Hi, my green water fluctuates between 8.0 (day time) to 8.9 (night time), presumably due to the algae. Do I still need to buffer with BS cos afraid my pH will rise even more? I tested Aqumedi's KH plus in some water and the pH could rise to above 11! There is some trace of ammonia (within 0.25ppm) in my green water. Is it usual to have this range of pH fluctuation (from 8.0 to 8.9)?

Thanks and regards
CyberET
hmm.. mine goes up to 10 at times smile.gif
clm2206

Hi bros,

After reading a lot of posts about water quality, it is clear for me you have a mandatory rule: Always buffer your water!. No matter if it is baking soda (instant rise), coral chips (slow and uncontrolled rise) or whatever you use, if it is a pond or a tank, if it is CW or green water, it is a must to raise the kH. I will not discuss the obvious importance of having a stable pH through an adequate kH of at least 5, but (probably I missed something) behind this rule underlies the fact that you at Singapore have a very low level of kH and hence an unstable pH.

In my case my tap average readings are

pH: 7.6
kH: 5
gH: 22
NH3/NH4: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 0 ppm

These are readings stable throughout the year, so I assume in my case (at least 80 litres per sub-8 cms. fish, and at least 120 litres per fish above 10 cms.), performing at least 2 80% weekly water changes, there is no need to buffer the water at all.

Am I wrong?

Best regards,

Carlos
CyberET
sort of smile.gif
your water is harder than what we get here, thus you can get away without buffering as it is already naturally buffered
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