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nobnoba
Are green water and Carpet Algae works the same way? ie. processing Ammonia to harmless nitrogen?

I am trying to find the best combination of both world. Since green water is excellent for water condition and goldfish growth and color but it makes owners see their lovely pets once a week!

My thinking is, if carpet algae works the same was as green water, then we could allow our tank to be covered by algae, have excellent water condition and yet can see the fish!

Rational goal, no?
HappyBuddha
Erm... just to clarify.... you're not getting the best of both world since you are going for carpet algae only.

Carpet alage and green water are totally different in many ways. The most obvious yet invisble to our naked eyes is the size of "green water". The algae in green water is unicellular in size. Yah, it's so tiny no one have yet posted its pic for me to see. smile.gif

Their tiny size alone makes them highly digestible and it's claim a fish swimming in green water is constantly "feeding" on unicellular alage.

Despite their small size and seemingly large quantity collectively turned water green, it's important to note and many bros have documented, that you'll need instensely green water to observe a noticable colour change to your goldfish. In this light, I doubt carpet algae is any good for colour restoration/enhancement.
HappyBuddha
Just to add on...

The numero uno reason given by many against using green water is they can't see their fishes.

Erm.... so what?

With a proper setup and well QTed fish, your collection is unlikely to fall sick easily. They don't fight, nor flattern their cheeks banging against the wall either. You'll see them for sure at least once a week during water change anyway, a time where you do your visual inspection.

Most importantly, you don't have to keep all your fishes in green water! Why do you want to hang around the hot and humid backyard (or rural ponds) everyday to "look" at your fishes. What is there to see?

Just set up a cool display tank in the comfort of your airconditioned living room, pull up your favoite lounger, lit your cigar and turn off the bloody handphone then stare blindly at and be mesmerized by your beautifully kept goldfishes, show class goldfishes that you rotate between your green and blue water!! yes.gif

Please change your mindset about needing to "see" your fishes and having green water will be an easily acceptable proposition.
The Matrix
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Sat, 09 Oct 2004 8:06 am)
Just to add on...

The numero uno reason given by many against using green water is they can't see their fishes.

Erm.... so what?

With a proper setup and well QTed fish, your collection is unlikely to fall sick easily.  They don't fight, nor flattern their cheeks banging against the wall either.  You'll see them for sure at least once a week during water change anyway, a time where you do your visual inspection.

Most importantly, you don't have to keep all your fishes in green water!  Why do you want to hang around the hot and humid backyard (or rural ponds) everyday to "look" at your fishes.  What is there to see?

Just set up a cool display tank in the comfort of your airconditioned living room, pull up your favoite lounger, lit your cigar and turn off the bloody handphone then stare blindly at and be mesmerized by your beautifully kept goldfishes, show class goldfishes that you rotate between your green and blue water!!  yes.gif

Please change your mindset about needing to "see" your fishes and having green water will be an easily acceptable proposition.
*



good_very.gif

But hor, if given a choice, I want to use carpet green for my display tank. so natural look ... put a few golf balls, tiger wood and vijay singh mini figurine and a few tikus ... wah seh ... peace.gif
cktan
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Sat, 09 Oct 2004 7:43 am)
Erm... just to clarify.... you're not getting the best of both world since you are going for carpet algae only.
*


I thought Geert produce some excellent Ranchu using blue water only? I believe its the diet the goldfish must get. If the diet contain a high proportion of green, might be as good as green water. That is for someone to try smile.gif.
nobnoba
Back to geert's method, huh?
well, anyone try the no filter method here? i suppose its easy using this method if the tank is small. what if its a pond with 4x2m, then no filter method is a gigantic effort to maintain.

So about carpet green, nutritional value aside, does it perform the same function as greenwater? in terms of eliminating ammonia.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Sat, 09 Oct 2004 2:44 pm)
So about carpet green, nutritional value aside, does it perform the same function as greenwater? in terms of eliminating ammonia.
*

AFAIK ("as far as I know"), carpet algae and most other better known algae except unicellular alage takes in nitrate as nutrient instead of Ammonia.

So if you're thinking about going without bio-filtration or green water and rely solely on carpet algae to remove ammonia, the setup will not work. sad.gif
HappyBuddha
For those of you who are wondering what is carpet algae... below is a pic to get you interested:-

IPB Image

Incredible hor? yes.gif

Find out more at: http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=560
CP
The display tank at AC is also having abt the same concept.
How I wish mine was like that.At least helps to cut down on nitrates.
Problem was I threw in a pleco at the first sight of algae.Cant bear to see a nice clean tank "dirtied".And I would presume that you would also have to clean the front side of the tank on a more regular basis.
greenhorn
Anyone can enlightment which is better in term of absorbing nitrate? blush.gif
As I know there only exist one type of algae in a tank, so I would like to choose one but don't know which is better. Is green water is better, then I will put a pleco to eat the algea on the glass, if not i will leave the it alone. Thanks rolleyes.gif
desireless
For wall carpet algae, you'll have to ask infocus.
http://www.RafflesGold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1910

He's been having it for some time now. good_very.gif
marc9
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue, 28 Feb 2006 8:20 pm)
As promised...


This is my 4-ft tank now. To take the pictures, I have to clear front side of the tank. I left out one portion so you see how fast the algae grows in 1 week. The fishes like to eat the algae from the wall, so I have to corner off one part of the tank to preserve the algae.

The long fluffy wall algae. Notice my water is very dirty with debris floating around. This is due to me not using mechanical filter and the sponge filters are not fast enough to work on the poos. But the nitrogen cycle is still working perfectly.
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4ft green water tank...cleaning must be very siong..hw u do water change and clean the walls...
CP
QUOTE(marc9 @ Wed, 01 Mar 2006 4:32 pm)
4ft green water tank...cleaning must be very siong..hw u do water change and clean the walls...
*


His is not a green water tank.Its a cycled tank, with carpet (UGLY carpet hysterical.gif ) algae.

But its good for the fishes.
marc9
QUOTE(CP @ Wed, 01 Mar 2006 9:46 pm)
His is not a green water tank.Its a cycled tank, with carpet (UGLY carpet  hysterical.gif ) algae.

But its good for the fishes.
*




so hw to attain the green carpet wall algae tank?hw do u change the water?
ranchu8
hi Desireless, do you have the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings, with the algae and without the algae, just before you change the water pls?
desireless
CP is correct. Green water and Wall Algae have different setup and they work differently. Only similarity is that you must have a strong light source. Of course, the best choice is Sunlight. Else, MH light will do. Worst case, use a PL light or T5.

The wall algae is good for removing nitrate. You'll still need to have a working bio filtration to remove ammonia and convert ammonia to nitrate (for the algae). Green water on the other hand works better on ammonia and nitrate. Given a choice I will still prefer green water but this is a display tank so I adopt the Wall Algae method. At this time, it is still experimental for me. I do not want to mislead members - I DO NOT see this as a permanent solution.

Basically, I have doubts with benefits of wall algae on goldfish (as compared to green water). But the thing is it looks kinda cool nananana.gif

PS: Yes I agree it works work on nitrate (a problem for clear-tank hobbyists), but I figure that's about all biggrin.gif So far I have yet to read a trustful document on benefits of Wall algae
desireless
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Thu, 02 Mar 2006 1:02 am)
hi Desireless, do you have the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings, with the algae and without the algae, just before you change the water pls?
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Hi Lawrence,

I've just tested the water. It is important to note that it has been 8 hours after the light went off (on timer). And it has been about 10 days since I last last changed the water.

The nitrate reading for the water now is 40ppm. I will need to take the reading again when light is on. The reading should be lesser then. My Seachem ammonia kit indicated yellow, meaning safe. It should be very small amount since I am sure my sponge filters are working perfectly biggrin.gif
top_view_ranchu
Carpet Algae! Pics taken today.

IPB Image
peter porker
QUOTE(desireless @ Thu, 02 Mar 2006 1:52 am)
CP is correct. Green water and Wall Algae have different setup and they work differently. Only similarity is that you must have a strong light source. Of course, the best choice is Sunlight.  Else, MH light will do. Worst case, use a PL light or T5.

The wall algae is good for removing nitrate. You'll still need to have a working bio filtration to remove ammonia and convert ammonia to nitrate (for the algae). Green water on the other hand works better on ammonia and nitrate. Given a choice I will still prefer green water but this is a display tank so I adopt the Wall Algae method. At this time, it is still experimental for me. I do not want to mislead members - I DO NOT see this as a permanent solution.

Basically, I have doubts with benefits of wall algae on goldfish (as compared to green water). But the thing is it looks kinda cool  nananana.gif

PS: Yes I agree it works work on nitrate (a problem for clear-tank hobbyists), but I figure that's about all biggrin.gif So far I have yet to read a trustful document on benefits of Wall algae
*



My experience with green water was inconclusive; I could not see any tangible improvements in my fish. However, from your gallery, one can see the improvements in your fish after soaking them in green water. Which was what inspired me to try out green water in the first place.

The effect of wall algae was more visible but it was only noticed in one fish, out of a batch of 4.

Just to elaborate...my fish are now housed in a rental pond as I could not find the space to put in a 4 ft tank in my new home.

I will follow up with some pictures next week, when I visit my fish this weekend.

By the way, the fish in your avatar is a beauty...inspiring stuff...its SV ranchus for me..
desireless
PP, you should give it more time. If you want a conclusive experiment, you need to have 2 similar fishes and subject them to 2 different environment. Then see the results in about 3 months' time. If you're unable to do that then believe what Vermillion Club has to say about outdoor green water. Being a premium goldfish club, they have the credibility to make statements as such (benefits of green water).
desireless
Anyway Lawrence, I measured the nitrate level when the light was on. The reading was 20ppm.
ranchu8
Thanks Desireless, these carpet algae sure takes in the nitrates well smile.gif
aronkhj
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Thu, 02 Mar 2006 11:08 am)
Carpet Algae! Pics taken today.


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Hey David... really impressive! beg2.gif beg2.gif

hey... jus curious... do you use a filter or jus only bubbles!
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(aronkhj @ Fri, 03 Mar 2006 12:36 pm)
Hey David... really impressive!  beg2.gif  beg2.gif

hey... jus curious... do you use a filter or jus only bubbles!
*



Hi Aron,
Only 1 air stone in tub.
ball
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Fri, 03 Mar 2006 2:15 pm)
Hi Aron,
Only 1 air stone in tub.
*


David,
How frequent do you change water?
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(ball @ Fri, 03 Mar 2006 2:28 pm)
David,
How frequent do you change water?
*



Hi ball,
Every 4, maximum 5 days.
ball
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Fri, 03 Mar 2006 2:53 pm)
Hi ball,
Every 4, maximum 5 days.
*



100%? Only two fishes in the tub?
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(ball @ Fri, 03 Mar 2006 11:19 pm)
100%? Only two fishes in the tub?
*



Yup 100%, only 2 fish.
chochiss
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Sat, 04 Mar 2006 4:31 am)
Yup 100%, only 2 fish.
*



100% water change? how bout the technique of maitaining 10% green water from the previous posting on green water?
d_golem
QUOTE(chochiss @ Sat, 04 Mar 2006 3:13 pm)
100% water change? how bout the technique of maitaining 10% green water from the previous posting on green water?
*


I think that's for greenwater, not green carpet algae.

U have to change 100% of the water for green carpet algae set up or nothing's gonna remove the ammonia & nitrite
chochiss
QUOTE(d_golem @ Sat, 04 Mar 2006 5:05 pm)
I think that's for greenwater, not green carpet algae.

U have to change 100% of the water for green carpet algae set up or nothing's gonna remove the ammonia & nitrite
*



thanx. missed out on this before i post my question. thanx again
The Matrix
QUOTE(d_golem @ Sat, 04 Mar 2006 4:05 pm)
I think that's for greenwater, not green carpet algae.

U have to change 100% of the water for green carpet algae set up or nothing's gonna remove the ammonia & nitrite
*


Give u a small thinking for the weekend ...

David only have an airstone, and given information from forum is such algae takes in nitrate and your mesage of "nothing gonna remove the ammonia", where the nitrites and nitrates comes from ?

unsure.gif
d_golem
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sat, 04 Mar 2006 10:55 pm)
Give u a small thinking for the weekend ...

David only have an airstone, and given information from forum is such algae takes in nitrate and your mesage of "nothing gonna remove the ammonia", where the nitrites and nitrates comes from ?

unsure.gif
*


I hope u help me think also smile.gif , and maybe David can give some explanation to this unsure.gif
But the 100% water change is done mainly to remove the ammonia & nitrite, rite?
top_view_ranchu
Another pic taken today. Same tub!

IPB Image
hanyabiasa
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue, 28 Feb 2006 8:20 pm)
...

*



desireless,

How often and how much u change the water? And why ur water doesn't turn green?
Is it white worm danger to goldfish? How often u clean the filter media?
desireless
How often and how much u change the water?
I change water every 6-10 days. Depends.

And why ur water doesn't turn green?
Because I am running on filtration and there's wall algae.

Is it white worm danger to goldfish?
Not that I know of. But planaria tends to irritate my fishes' gills

How often u clean the filter media?
As I say I do not use OHF nor canister filter. The last time I washed my sponge filters was 3 months ago. tongue.gif
hanyabiasa
Desireless,

How much water do u change? 100%?
CyberET
QUOTE(desireless @ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:13 pm)
As I say I do not use OHF nor canister filter. The last time I washed my sponge filters was 3 months ago. tongue.gif
*


i think now its your algae doing most of the job rather than sponge filter laugh.gif
desireless
QUOTE(hanyabiasa @ Thu, 09 Mar 2006 9:19 am)
Desireless,

How much water do u change? 100%?
*


Yes. That's how I do water change. You would realise that most bros do 100% water change here. Please read this topic again. Your answer can be found at least twice in this topic alone.
QUOTE(CyberET @ Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:23 am)
i think now its your algae doing most of the job rather than sponge filter laugh.gif
*


Hahaha.. Sponge filters are toy for my fishes.. Sponge soccer
aquaplantae
hello everybody, i just joined this forum.

looks like u guys having a conversation about nitrogen. whether it's ammonia/ium, nitrite or nitrate. as an aquascaper, i have dealt with so many algae past these years. as almost of u already know, algae is a low level plant that don't have complete organs. higher plants have at least three parts, first is the root, then the branch (i don't know in english, in indonesia it is batang), and lastly the leaf itself. is higher plants superior to algae, can't tell that. but one thing for sure, algae is one of the most successful living creature in this world. for billions of years, they only change a little bit (call it evolution if u like). algae have adapting themself in those many years. almost all algae don't fussy with their source of foods. they can take nitrogen in any form. the best one is ammonia/ium (nh3/nh4). that's because it's easier to strip of nitrogen in this form. their chemical bond is not so hard to break-off, and need less energy to do that. while the oxidized form of ammonia/ium is nitrite and nitrate. as one consider the word oxidize, that means that the chemical is already reacted with oxygen n got "burned" (for iron, we call it "rust"). material or chemical that already got oxidized, usually is harder to utilize. the same applies to nitrite n nitrate. plants (low n high) need more energy to utilize the nitrogen from no2 n no3. that's because the chemical bond is tighter than nh3/nh4. unlike high level plants, algae have advance ways to utilize their foods along with lights. while high level plants need spesific light spectrum to do photosynthesis, algae is enough with scarce light. so it is almost need no effort to grow algae. just give them their food n enough lights, voila, comes the algae. one more thing, liebig's law of minimum, high level plants need other chemical to utilize some chemical, ie to utilize nitrogen, there should be enough phosporus n kalium (potassium). if one of the components is missing, the photosynthesis will get disturb. that's just the macro elements, there are still micro elements such as zn, fe, mo, mg, ca, etc (n one will affect another). while algae, they don't get too picky about their foods. given only nitrogen, they will grow. that's why algae still exist in this planet, it's because their superior adaptibility.

conclusion: it's not important to consider that green water eat ammonia/ium, nitrite or nitrate, the important one is, that it's just their source of energy and they can use all of them, but they prefer to use the one that have not been oxidized. that's why the readings for no2 n no3 in greenwater usually zero, because they don't have a chance to even exist. n the readings for nh3/nh4 is usually very low, because they use it first.

ps. i'm sorry if my reply is oot. n i hope we can share benefits. thanks.
ranchu8
tks aquaplantae for sharing smile.gif i'm curious of the following - does algae under cloudy sky or in the night take in ammonia/ium, nitrite or nitrate? if not, how much light is needed before the algae takes them in? is there any difference between algae in green water and algae on wall?
aquaplantae
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:48 pm)
tks aquaplantae for sharing  smile.gif i'm curious of the following - does algae under cloudy sky or in the night take in ammonia/ium, nitrite or nitrate? if not, how much light is needed before the algae takes them in? is there any difference between algae in green water and algae on wall?
*



i think there's a problem with the cloudy sky here. there's no rule how cloudy is cloudy, so i can't answer this question. my point of view about cloudy might be different with your pov.

there is no guidelines afaik for the light requirement so that algae could photosynthesize. as in the night they don't photosynthesize, but respirate, they'll consume o2. so it's really necessary to provide additional aeration to the pond/tub/aquarium etc. and the result is, in the night they won't utilize any of the nitrogen source. maybe to find out about light requirements so that algae could photosynthesize, u could try googling with keyword par (photosynthetic active radiation).

of course there's a difference between greenwater n wall algae. they're a completely different species. greenwater usually caused by spirulina sp and volvox, while wall algae could be caused by cladophora sp, etc. greenwater is caused by unicellular organism, whereas wall algae is caused by multicellular organism. u could find out more about algae in www.thekrib.com
The Matrix
Aquaplantae, solid knowledge ! You are getting the correct stuff. good.gif
Unicelluar vs multicelluar .... biggrin.gif few thousands variations to talk about.

anyway, the root system of plant has special function n enyzme to store and stripe of the complex nitrogens to simple form with other minerals before delivering to the stalk and leaves thus result in releasing O ions into water as by-products.

Lawrence, in a cloudy day, not hovering dark clouds, the temperature will be around 6000 kelvins. that's enough to make the green works. however, photosynthesis does not immediately start, rather the organisms require to absorb sufficient energy first. usually within 30 mins.
aquaplantae
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:59 am)
Aquaplantae, solid knowledge ! You are getting the correct stuff.  good.gif
Unicelluar vs multicelluar ....  biggrin.gif  few thousands variations to talk about.


tehehehehe, thanks. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:59 am)
anyway, the root system of plant has special function n enyzme to store and stripe of the complex nitrogens to simple form with other minerals before delivering to the stalk and leaves thus result in releasing O ions into water as by-products.



this maybe true for terrestrial plants, as they utilize nitrogen from earth by their roots. but for aquatic plants, almost all of their body parts can utilize nutrients from water body. so water plants can use their body parts to take up nutrients and release their photosynthesis byproduct o2. this is due to the supply of nitrogen in the water, not in the substrate. as for some of the aquatic plants, their root is only acting as an anchoring device. while their stalk and leaf is the one to collect nutrients.

QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:59 am)
Lawrence, in a cloudy day, not hovering dark clouds, the temperature will be around 6000 kelvins. that's enough to make the green works. however, photosynthesis does not immediately start, rather the organisms require to absorb sufficient energy first. usually within 30 mins.
*



actually, when we're talking about cloudy sky here, the important factor is not the color spectrum, but rather the lux/lumens (light intensity). all across the earth, the color spectrum on the equatorial is between 5000-6500 kelvin. so whether it's cloudy or not the color spectrum still fall in those range. i've just read up baensch aquarium atlas vol 1, in page 46, it's stated about light intensity:
-. daylight in clear sky is about 75000 lux
-. plants in nature get about 9500-38000 lux
-. surface plants in aquarium get about 2400-4800 lux
-. plants in middle tank range; lower light requirement limit get about 300-1200 lux
-. cryptocoryne and other plants requiring little light, adaptable plants get about 75-150 lux
-. algae could even utilize light as low as 50 lux (not stated in the book)
ranchu8
Thanks Aquaplantae and Matrix smile.gif
aronkhj
Hi guys.
I was reading all the talk about the goodness and such of green water, I decided to make some over here... and heres some photos to show the outcome. It took about 8-9 days. Over the last few days was really cloudy and not much sun. Then yesterday the sun came out and **BOOM** every thing became green!

I don't use any air bubbles or anything. Just leave one of my fish in there and feed it alot.


I hope the brew is correct? What you guys think?


IPB Image

IPB Image
CP
The brew looks good.
Maybe due to the low temperatures in China this time of the year, you can do without an airstone.But it is advisable to have one,especially at night or when the ambient temperature rises.
marc9
QUOTE(aronkhj @ Sat, 11 Mar 2006 1:23 pm)
Hi guys.
I was reading all the talk about the goodness and such of green water, I decided to make some over here...  and heres some photos to show the outcome. It took about 8-9 days. Over the last few days was really cloudy and not much sun. Then yesterday the sun came out and **BOOM** every thing became green!

I don't use any air bubbles or anything. Just leave one of my fish in there and feed it alot.
I hope the brew is correct? What you guys think?



*




gd colour..btw..can JRL be used in green water?im afraid it will collaspe
marc9
QUOTE(marc9 @ Sat, 11 Mar 2006 6:38 pm)
gd colour..btw..can JRL be used in green water?im afraid it will collaspe
*



so can JRL be used in green water?
CP
Its OK, as it does not contain PSB.
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