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mountain
cry.gif hai , looks like fated all first timer has to fail on their first attempt (Xian Ku Hou Tian unsure.gif ) .. well.. yesterday was the 6th or 7th day.. no sign of green water.
the tub probably crashed on the 4th day when it failed to turn blur, instead turning to Brownish... (I shall call this the HB Brown water biggrin.gif ) with the ammonia hitting high end, guess the ammonia too high, or my PL not power enuff.. well restarted yesterday, but with the same fish.. so ... chance still quite low if the dud is sick from the bad water...

consult yur 2 matters, PH, i set it up at 8.0 range last nite, with 1 3" fish. Is the range of PH alrite? how abt the Bio-load?


another matter is, i have another experimental tub near the window, with 4 parrot's inside with a simple wool filter, i think 1 1/2 mth no chance water, no change wool liao.. its walls are lined with greenish stuff wacko.gif, which i have to use my hand to scrap off.. now.. those are another type of algeas .. tio bo??
HappyBuddha
Kekeke. I would wait a few more days as virgin green takes a longer time to kick in. How many wattage is your PL lamp?

I suggest you don't up the pH with baking soda for now. Only do that after you have successfully cultivated your green water. See ah, for 1 ppm of NH4, the water is okay at pH 7. The same 1 ppm of NH4, however, is deadly when the pH is above 8.8 as shown in the attached chart. Maybe that's why you're getting the HB brown water instead as your fishes are not feeling well. biggrin.gif

IPB Image

The correct way to do it is... after you have successfully cultivated intensely green water, take a pH test kit to test the pH just before you discard the green water. Then match the new clear water's pH to it. You know what I mean? unsure.gif

And just to make you dulan a bit... remember I lost 2 oranda recently in my indoor green water tub? Well... today is probably the 3rd or 4th day I restarted from scratch (I didn't use a single bit of possibly spoilt old green water to seed it) ... and I'm already seeing lightly tinted green water. I expect it to turn noticebly green tomorrow. biggrin.gif The key... I guess, is a strong lighting source (I've got 2x55watts PL to kick start it running about 10-11 hours a day.) The tub was cloudy yeseterday with decomposed bloodworms and poos flowing around. I had to increase aeration as the fishes were noticeably gasping for air.

Kekeke.
HappyBuddha
Bioload.... I have four 1 1/2 inches cheap ($2 each) oranda in the tub. They're actually brand new fishes I just bought to kick start green water. I started feeding them on day 2 with frozen bloodworms and lionhead pellets. Unfortunately my AmmoniaAlert meter is not working.... but I'll test the NH4 and pH with JBL kits later; they should be high. ICQ me if I forget.

Oei, you said 2 matters!

Yeah... those are not the "free-floating" algae of green water (since they are not floating but sticking!) Damn... you have those in your tank and you wipe them off? I'd love to have them in my main clear water tank. Everytime I go to AC I'd just stand in front and admire that mega glass tank with those carpet-like algae. Swee ah.... somemore you can see the fishes green poo poos. yes.gif
mountain
good.gif kam sia for yur advice bro.

will discard the water and start afresh tonite with neutral PH.

i using the original 55w PL tat comes with the CRAquriam case.. i know .. it could be a low class PL, but its damn new.. its still bright (to me) and if i discard..wat a damn waste..

just 2 clear things up a bit (my england lousy, so is my math) .. u using "2x55watts PL" - does it mean physically 2 pairs (4 tubes)??? if so, tat means i am only using half the lighting required!! longpia.gif

my dud was also grasping for air 2 days ago.. i guess its from the high ammonia.. u must be feeding alot bro.. u even have remaining decomposed BW!!
mountain
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Fri 19 Dec 2003 03:18 PM)
Bioload.... I have four 1 1/2 inches cheap ($2 each) oranda in the tub. They're actually brand new fishes I just bought to kick start green water.  I started feeding them on day 2 with frozen bloodworms and lionhead pellets.  Unfortunately my AmmoniaAlert meter is not working....  but I'll test the NH4 and pH with JBL kits later; they should be high.  ICQ me if I forget.

Oei, you said 2 matters! 

Yeah... those are not the "free-floating" algae of green water (since they are not floating but sticking!)  Damn... you have those in your tank and you wipe them off?  I'd love to have them in my main clear water tank.  Everytime I go to AC I'd just stand in front and admire that mega glass tank with those carpet-like algae. Swee ah.... somemore you can see the fishes green poo poos.  yes.gif

dun need to test lah .. i think u can save those few drops .. it should be high anyway.. wat are u expecting?? 0 readings??

u using 4 1/2" .. wa say .. every huge bio difference from my One 3" ranchu .. i think tonite play Ti-Kum with my main tank liao.. shiok.gif see who kanna jackpot go into the tub wink.gif
Allan
Buddha asked me to test them for him. Anyway, I'm curious about it too.

pH is 7.5.
NH4 is a very high 2 ppm!

Let's see. That's harmful to fries only. Thank god.

I should add that there are FIVE orandas and not 3 like Fred mentioned earlier. So if five small Orandas produce 2 ppm of NH4 in 3-4 days, it's no wonder your lone fish is unable to produce enough ammonia to help cultivate green water.

Cheers.
Allan
QUOTE(mountain @ Fri 19 Dec 2003 03:19 PM)
good.gif kam sia for yur advice bro.

will discard the water and start afresh tonite with neutral PH.

i using the original 55w PL tat comes with the CRAquriam case.. i know .. it could be a low class PL, but its damn new.. its still bright (to me) and if i discard..wat a damn waste..

just 2 clear things up a bit (my england lousy, so is my math) .. u using "2x55watts PL" - does it mean physically 2 pairs (4 tubes)??? if so, tat means i am only using half the lighting required!! longpia.gif

my dud was also grasping for air 2 days ago.. i guess its from the high ammonia.. u must be feeding alot bro.. u even have remaining decomposed BW!!

Don't rush out to buy another CR Aquarium lamp.

By "2x55 watts" he meant he has two CR aquarium lamps, each one has one 55 watts PL tube. His CR Aquarium lamp, however, was modified to fit a different PL lamp. The original CR brand's PL lamp is weak. He told me when he visually compared the intensity between a, then brand new, SaferElectic brand 55 watts and a few months old CR 55 watts, the output of the later is noticeably weaker.

It would be wise for you to upgrade your CR lamp to use the SaferElectic or Osram PL lamp tube. But you'll only need one lamp for that same tub you have as Buddha's.

Cheers!
Allan
From what I gathered, since the Oranda's aeration mishap disaster struck on Monday, this tub of "virgin" green water is no more than 4 days old.

As you can see in the attached photo, it's not really as lightly tinted as Buddha made it out to be but obviously green.

And... those are really cheap Orandas but interestinly they all have pom poms.

IPB Image
Allan
Sorry bro Mountain I didn't post the photo to make you "Cake Sim". I just want to show you the effect of strong lighting.

Do seriously consider upgrading your lamp. I think there's a DIY guide somewhere in the forum. The parts are not too expensive. If I recall, the tube is $12 while a single 55 watts eBallast about $20. It's hard to maintain good green water with a weak lighting source.

Cheers.
mountain
good_very.gif hey bro Allan, no no .. i where will get "Cake Sim" .. where to find so many Sifu and advice but in RafflesGold. I say Kam Sia still not enuff ah ..
will digest yur replys with absolute concentration...
HappyBuddha
How's your green water now? Mine was quite intense and I changed it leow. biggrin.gif
mountain
i dumped that first tub of water liao lor..
didn't really wana start again becaz of weak light source.. but wat the hack ... i started it anyway laugh.gif , dump another not so favourite dud into the tub, so far .. ammonia already creep abv 2.5 last nite i checked. and of course no green but full of decomposed stuff, and maybe a bit "cloudy" .. at least better then the first one where it turned brownish dirty. but see wats the tomorrow nite, if lousy i shall stop.

in the mean time, i just gotta buy the osram tube and the eballast! which i never had the time! good_no.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mountain @ Tue 23 Dec 2003 04:50 PM)
i dumped that first tub of water liao lor..
didn't really wana start again becaz of weak light source.. but wat the hack ... i started it anyway  laugh.gif , dump another not so favourite dud into the tub, so far .. ammonia already creep abv 2.5 last nite i checked. and of course no green but full of decomposed stuff, and maybe a bit "cloudy" .. at least better then the first one where it turned brownish dirty. but see wats the tomorrow nite, if lousy i shall stop.

in the mean time, i just gotta buy the osram tube and the eballast! which i never had the time!  good_no.gif

Decomposing waste and "cloudy" water. Your green water is on its way! happydance.gif

I know many bros buy the PL bulb and eBallast from this guy. Beside lower prices, he delivers to your door step for free. Song boh?

Ask him if he can get you the 10,000 kelvin 55 watts Osram.. From what I know he buys in bulk from a distributor and pass on the savings (earn a bit lah) to you so your special request for 10,000 kelvin may not save you much. But heck... you can't dial 62353535 for a PL lamp leh.
CyberET
mai use so high temperature na.. normal daylight 6500K can liaoz..
mountain
QUOTE(CyberET @ Tue 23 Dec 2003 11:18 PM)
mai use so high temperature na.. normal daylight 6500K can liaoz..

mad.gif u dun really expect me to leave my tub down under the HDB block for the sun when i go work, and come back home expecting it to be there mad.gif

Maybe the tub will still be there minus the content laugh.gif

next time buy top top top top floor, go up rooftop.

Idea : Submit proposal to HDB, open up Roof Top for Green Water Hobbyist. Maximise Space Utilities in Singapore, save Electricity , Raised more A class Ranchus.
CyberET
u no understand me tongue.gif
what i mean is the lighting color
use 6500 Kelvin
not 10000 Kelvin
dennis
QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed 24 Dec 2003 09:25 AM)
u no understand me tongue.gif

Hehehehehe ........ this is funny! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

When I was schooling, it actually took me awhile to accept that the meansurement of "colour" of light being measured in degree of hotness too. tongue.gif
mountain
QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed 24 Dec 2003 09:25 AM)
u no understand me tongue.gif
what i mean is the lighting color
use 6500 Kelvin
not 10000 Kelvin

*faint* pai say pai say beg1.gif
Jos Nana
QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed 24 Dec 2003 09:25 AM)
u no understand me tongue.gif
what i mean is the lighting color
use 6500 Kelvin
not 10000 Kelvin

Kelvin is refering to the intensity of the light spectrum. Not temperature. MH light of the same wattage will emit the same amount of heat.

The higher the Kelvin value, the better cos it will penetrate deeper into the water.
CyberET
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 03:01 AM)
Kelvin is refering to the intensity of the light spectrum. Not temperature. MH light of the same wattage will emit the same amount of heat.

The higher the Kelvin value,  the better cos it will penetrate deeper into the water.

oh.. i see.. so as PL light penetration is lower, one requires higher Kelvin for PL as compared to MH? would the green produced be similar to MH @ 6500K, or sunlight?
Jos Nana
QUOTE(CyberET @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 09:09 AM)
oh.. i see.. so as PL light penetration is lower, one requires higher Kelvin for PL as compared to MH? would the green produced be similar to MH @ 6500K, or sunlight?

PL lights and flourescent tubes (Dupla/Arcadia etc..) also have the same kelvin value at the beginning. However, the rate of depletion is very fast. The Green water you get now with new tubes will be very different one month later.

MH tubes maintains its spectrum longer. For MH tubes, replacement period is about 1 year. Flourescent and PL tubes - 3 months max.
dennis
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 03:01 AM)
Kelvin is refering to the intensity of the light spectrum. Not temperature. MH light of the same wattage will emit the same amount of heat.

The higher the Kelvin value,  the better cos it will penetrate deeper into the water.

I think you might be mistaken. Kelvin is a temperature scale ...... below is an extract from http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0827335.html

****** Extract Starts *********

Kelvin temperature scale, a temperature scale having an absolute zero below which temperatures do not exist. Absolute zero, or 0K, is the temperature at which molecular energy is a minimum, and it corresponds to a temperature of -273.15° on the Celsius temperature scale. The Kelvin degree is the same size as the Celsius degree; hence the two reference temperatures for Celsius, the freezing point of water (0°C), and the boiling point of water (100°C), correspond to 273.15K and 373.15K, respectively. When writing temperatures in the Kelvin scale, it is the convention to omit the degree symbol and merely use the letter K. The temperature scale is named after the British mathematician and physicist William Thomson Kelvin, who proposed it in 1848. Another absolute temperature scale, the Rankine temperature scale, is used by some engineers. See also Fahrenheit temperature scale.

****** Extract Ends ***********

When a light is rated in Kelvin it's usually refers to the color spectrum of the light it emmits rather then it's intensity, I think the intensity is measured in something call footcandles or lux. The following is an extract from http://members.shaw.ca/jimht03/light.html.

******* Extract Starts **********

Black Body Illuminants
The first group of light sources are the black body illuminants. These are materials that produce light when they are heated. The sun is a black body illuminant, as is a candle flame. The color of light of these types of sources can be characterized by their Kelvin temperature. Note that this temperature has nothing to do with how "hot" a light source is - just with the color of its light. A light source with a low Kelvin temperature is very red. One with a high Kelvin temperature is very blue. More accurately, when we see two light sources side by side in a scene, the higher Kelvin light appears more blue, and the lower Kelvin light appears more red. Its all relative.

Black body illuminants produce a fairly even, continuous spectrum of colors, and so are perceived as "white" by our visual sense. Therefore, in the absence of comparative light sources in our scene, these should be rendered with warm, nearly white lights.

Below is a chart of some common Kelvin Light Source temperatures coupled with their RGB Equivalents. These equivalents were arrived arbitrarily - I eyeballed them. There were a couple of converters I found online, each taking a different approach. One of them colored the sources by reference - you input a Kelvin temperature that you want to be "white" and the temperature to convert into an RGB value. Visually, however, the results were disappointing. They were scientifically correct, but failed to take into account the adaptability of the human visual sense. The other converter did even worse, ending up with greenish shades in the 4500K range that black body illuminants are incapable of creating. So, the alternative was to use my eye and judgment to arrive at these values.

Light Source...........Kelvin temperature...............R G B Values Color
Candle.......................1900....................................255, 147, 41
40W Tungsten.............2600....................................255, 197, 143
100W Tungsten...........2850....................................255, 214, 170
Halogen.....................3200....................................255, 241, 224
Carbon Arc................5200....................................255, 250, 244
High Noon Sun...........5400....................................255, 255, 251
Direct Sunlight...........6000....................................255, 255, 255
Overcast Sky.............7000....................................201, 226, 255
Clear Blue Sky..........20000...................................64, 156, 255

******** Extract Ends **************

Do go to the hyperlink attached to see the colour chart and images used to illustrate the spectrum. BTW I think the last entry in the above table is wrong, bright blue light should be 10,000K instead of 20,000K.

Incidentally I also have a site http://www.automatedaquariums.com/mw_m700.htm for a meter which reads light intensitywhich is meant for a aquarium.

Here a thread in another forum where they discuss alittle about the spectrum and intensity require to achieve photosynthesis. Well actaully just some arguement that is smile.gif The link is http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...7/msg00378.html Do read the other threads, they do make good reading.
Jos Nana
Reply to dennis :-

Thank you for your info.

If base on the info from the extract, then 373.15K = 100 degrees C. Then 6500K = 1741 degrees C ! It don't seems to make sense. As mention in the later part of your extract, in Aquarium lighting, K denotes the colour spectrum rather than the temperature.

Yes, the essence in relation to K is the correct mix of Red, Green and Blue spectrum. I have use a loose word "intensity" to simplified things. Guess its was a bad choice of words.

For Green water, it needs more and undisturbed Blue spectrum, Thus a higher K value tube is better.

Many thanks for your info. Will keep in file.
square_guy
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 11:04 AM)
Reply to dennis :-

Thank you for your info.

If base on the info from the extract, then 373.15K = 100 degrees C. Then 6500K  = 1741 degrees C !  It don't seems to make sense. As mention in the later part of your extract, in Aquarium lighting, K denotes the colour spectrum rather than the temperature.

Yes, the essence in relation to K is the correct mix of Red, Green and Blue spectrum. I have use a loose word "intensity" to simplified things. Guess its was a bad choice of words.

For Green water, it needs more and undisturbed Blue spectrum, Thus a higher K value tube is better.

Many thanks for your info. Will keep in file.

not really relevant (more like point of interest), kelvin is an actual scientific temperature scale. it is absolute, so zero kelvin is the lowest temperature possible in the physical world. using kelvin to grade colour temperature stems (i believe) from the fact that body giving out certain degree of heat will exhibit certain colour. in fact some intruments can measure the temperature of something purely on its colour. a body glowing red will be of certain kelvin, likewise for a body glowing blue.

so we have the common terms such as red-hot or white-hot. wink.gif

hope i got most things corret
dennis
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 11:04 AM)
If base on the info from the extract, then 373.15K = 100 degrees C. Then 6500K  = 1741 degrees C !  It don't seems to make sense.

Yah I understand what you mean. Thats why in the initial post I said that I have problem accepting Kelvin as a measurement for the color of light while I was in school laugh.gif until I saw a documentary on TV where they heat some steel pipes as an experiment, but for that simple experiment they could only reach white or white-hot as square_guy put it smile.gif
Seacucumber
who is this Kelvin guy anyway??
LASERGUY
QUOTE(g-string @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 06:33 PM)
who is this Kelvin guy anyway??

The one who sold you those G-STRING !!!! shiok.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(g-string @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 06:33 PM)
who is this Kelvin guy anyway??

Kelvin is actually his last name...

IPB Image

Whoa, he helped laid the world's first transatlantic g-string? biggrin.gif

Okay, so now I know who Kelvin is... and that Kelvin refers to the colour spectrum a light source emits. But how do you explain "intensity". Go to a dark room, and light up a candle. The room is now dimly lit. Now, light up 64 candles. The room is now a lot brighter. How do you measure this brightness? unsure.gif
mountain
uncle me onli 26yrs old.. dun talk spaceship to me lei.. dun understand happydance1.gif

IPB Image
mountain
haha.. give u chance make a lousy guess...
mountain
har lor. sai.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mountain @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 08:48 PM)
har lor. sai.

That's a lot of poos man. How come my fishes seem to digest their food better? What have you been feeding them? click-me.gif

How many days old is that tub har?

The water is cloudy...I think you green water is on its way. But then I can see algae on the floor. Why aren't they floating har? biggrin.gif I would siphon away the poos now, and top-up the water.

IPB Image
CyberET
better to remove those algae stucked on the walls and base of the tub smile.gif
mountain
no time.. haha.. so i left it there a few days, surprise got greenish stuff ard. haha..
pooss.. damn smell .. gonna dump the tub tomorrow..
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mountain @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 10:38 PM)
no time.. haha.. so i left it there a few days, surprise got greenish stuff ard. haha..
pooss.. damn smell .. gonna dump the tub tomorrow..

Oei, just siphon away the poos and the algae. Then change... 50-70% of the water (probably too much ammoia leow). Wait a few days... and you should see a little green water wor.
mountain
hmm.gif dump liao , too stinko, *puke*
nvm, green water not so impt now, dun have the proper light source yet.
thanks for all the encouragement.
btw, the dud gonna explode liao, eat too much rolleyes.gif
dennis
QUOTE(mountain @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 11:53 PM)
hmm.gif dump liao , too stinko, *puke*
nvm, green water not so impt now, dun have the proper light source yet.
thanks for all the encouragement.
btw, the dud gonna explode liao, eat too much rolleyes.gif

Hey mountain, I think we got the same problem. I also got what you image show, and the green stuff is damn hard to totally scrab off.
mountain
QUOTE(dennis @ Sat 27 Dec 2003 12:54 AM)
Hey mountain, I think we got the same problem. I also got what you image show, and the green stuff is damn hard to totally scrab off.

hard to scrap off ohmy.gif wa say, then u must have left them there for more then quite a while, those walled algea's super stubborn. but mine, i quickly scrap them all away last nite.
CyberET
QUOTE(hun citizen @ Sat 27 Dec 2003 08:29 AM)
Why leh?  I have those algae on the sides and bottom of the tub.... kinda kewl.  I only clear them once a month.

hehe.. as long as got clear once awhile
i don't want it to compete with the green water
i also clear once a month
HappyBuddha
I clear them whenever I scrub my tub once a week. biggrin.gif
dennis
Is it true that once hair or green algae establish itself in a tank, you would not get others like the free floating uni-celluar type. I hear that the algae produce some kinda chemical to prevent competition. Just like an over-crowded fish tank.

Any thoughs on that ?
Jos Nana
Yes. The hairly and turf type of algae uses nitrate as their fertiliser. When nitrate is present, its means biological activity is more bouyant than green water . Your green water has lost the competition for ammonia.
square_guy
ohh, so that means our free floating algae has lost the competition to BB, not hairy algae, rite?
dennis
QUOTE(Jos Nana @ Tue 30 Dec 2003 03:49 AM)
Yes. The hairly and turf type of algae uses nitrate as their fertiliser. When nitrate is present, its means biological activity is more bouyant than green water . Your green water has lost the competition for ammonia.

Ok thanks. I think I should find out who's converting the Ammonia the next time I try again. shiok.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(dennis @ Tue 30 Dec 2003 10:30 AM)
Ok thanks. I think I should find out who's converting the Ammonia the next time I try again. shiok.gif

Observe bro hun's new green water start-up.

Because his light source is powerful, he's getting green water from scratch very quickly!
dennis
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Tue 30 Dec 2003 01:20 PM)
Observe bro hun's new green water start-up.

Because his light source is powerful, he's getting green water from scratch very quickly!

Yah, I think the lights do play a big part. I guess my 55W from CR can use for my normal 2 feet tank liow. Gonna have to convert one of the FL to PL.
mountain
oh, u also using the defauly CR pl lamps? didn't work ehh.. hai..

well, i got the quote from the dud in AF for osram PL and eballast, but dunno can fit into my casis or not.. unsure.gif
dennis
QUOTE(mountain @ Tue 30 Dec 2003 01:50 PM)
oh, u also using the defauly CR pl lamps? didn't work ehh.. hai..

well, i got the quote from the dud in AF for osram PL and eballast, but dunno can fit into my casis or not..  unsure.gif

Just Re-read HB post on DIYing the PL light. I hope I hope I can make the time to drop down Veerasamy Road to check out the SaferElectric bulb and Elbiru E-Ballast. Hope to get everything assemble for below 40 bucks. I got a lamp casing spare so that should reduce the cost alittle.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mountain @ Tue 30 Dec 2003 01:50 PM)
oh, u also using the defauly CR pl lamps? didn't work ehh.. hai..

well, i got the quote from the dud in AF for osram PL and eballast, but dunno can fit into my casis or not..  unsure.gif

The 55 watts PL bulb will fit inside the CR casing nicely. In fact, it fits so well, you don't need a holder to hold it in place; just use a wooden stick to seperate and prevent the bulb from touching the clear plastic cover.

The eBallast must be installed externally. No way you could fit it inside the casing because it's too tall.
Inxs
QUOTE(CyberET @ Fri 26 Dec 2003 10:34 PM)
better to remove those algae stucked on the walls and base of the tub smile.gif

How to remove? use a cloth to rude over. Or should pour the water to another tug, clean this tug and pour water back? hmm.gif
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