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CP
Arowanas has come with a certificate and chip implant for some time now.It was done with a purpose,the reason in which I am not very sure but has since been a common acceptable practice.

I have also seen high grade kois bearing certificates from Momotaro at Max Koi Farm.The kois costs thousands for a 30cm one.

But certificates for goldfish? ;) I first came across them late last year,bearing the name of the farm that produces the goldfish and a classification of the fish,usually a 'showclass' or 'special show'.I have yet to see one with a lower grading (such as AAA).The LFS that brought in some 20 to 30 pieces of TVs and SVs all carried a certificate,in other words 20 to 30 show class fishes were brought in at one go.

It just doesn't make sense.If a reputable farm or a reputable breeder produces a cert to signify that the fish is from his farm or from him as a breeder,it is understandable.I have no problems with that.But if a somewhat unknown farm or unknown breeder produces a cert saying that his fish is show class,then it is a different thing altogether.To put it bluntly,marketing gimmick.

I have seen many of these certs and dare say that I can produce better ones.The photo were badly taken,it was probably printed with a home PC on a piece of A4 and then laminated.The whole stack of certificate I had seen all bore the date 31 Nov 2004.WTF,a 31st in the month of November!!So much can be said of the professionalism.

And I have seen buyers felt very happy with their purchase simply because it carries a cert.And potential buyers viewing fishes asking the LFS whether that particular fish carries a cert.

Haiz,haven't we got enough of our own paper chase?What a load of crap!!
Seacucumber
goldfish cant compare to aro and koi lah.....
aro got cert becos its protected under CITES.....
koi cert is mainly those award winning ones in Japan.....

moreover, kois are more genetically stable compared to goldfish....

a goldfishes is ever changing....huge changes i mean....
imagine a very stunning and flawless junior tosai with a cert....from a reputable farm in JAPAN lets say....costing thousands of dollars....who knows if it can maintain that kind of quality in its nisai and oya years?? it all depend on the line of the fish and the keeper...
i mean it will generate confusion...either tarnishing the reputation of the farm that produces the cert if the fish deteriorates or pushing the reputation to new heights if the fish is well taken care of....wat are the odds??

if a cert for goldfish is really that important, trust me, all thiose famous breeders in Japan, Thailand and China will be producing them by tons....
desireless
Yes, I agree it is simply a marketting gimmick.. something which serves no purpose to hobbyists like us. In fact all of those which I have seen that came with certs didn't fit the "show grade" standard that was claimed. Most of them looked at most AAA.

I would understand the past practice of issuing cert to ranchus that had won some trophies previously. If I remember correctly, it is called "Show Grade with Title". At least this serve some purpose - It is proof and record of this ranchu winning something in the past, and to be proudly kept by its owner.

But for a small farm with unknown breeder issuing certs with their anyhow grading... sorry but this act simply annoys me. And I have very little respect for the LFS that actually brings in these "(lower than graded) ranchus with (suspicious-looking) cert"
The Matrix
andy, japan also got cert. but the cert is only for fish breeded by certain group of breeders or a particular famous breeder. it is unusual for a cert for a particular goldfish.

genetically, goldfish is still unstable after 1500 yrs of breeding. Dun tell me some funny people can stablise it within the past 20 yrs. tickle me please. ok, unless they got to know the goldfish croning technology now developing somewhere in China ... maybe another 3-5 yrs, every fish looks alike machiam neon tetra.

i won't go against issuing of cert, just be sure that the grading system be printed properly on the cert. how could a small fish be in show grade. what really is show grade ? the definition of grading is blurred by the commercial marketing strategy and interests.

look at those expensive fishes with certs, the grading system is quite standard and easily understood. Even tunghoi also provide a good grading system to price their exporting fish. but never a term as "show grade".

well, if someone really want to buy a fish with cert, so be it. a carrot head will forever a carrot head unless the carrot head eats his own humble carrot pie. tongue.gif
ranchu8
When CPIW first raised this post, I thought and expected (like a few others I presume) that there would be a line of replies on this. Appears not.

My view on this is simple: I would like to see certs for top view ranchus that are sold for say more than $300, particularly on whether they are Japanese bred and to know its bloodline. (I do not mean for bbrs or when the ranchu is still too young when its colour shape etc is radically changing until it may look different a few weeks after it is shipped in.) My reasoning is simple: good money is being paid for alleged known Japanese tvr, generally higher than for Thai tvr. There are also rumours that a seller'(s) claims that their pricey ranchu are of certain bloodlines and of Japanese bred are false at times. Knowing the ranchu's true bloodline will also advance knowledge. True, the ranchu's traits are not stable for all. However, there are supposedly certain traits for certain known bloodlines. Sure, the cert is no guarantee. But at least it would make a seller think twice before making fraudulent claims. The cert is a document and a receipt (with the cert particulars) for the ranchu can be asked for, esp if one pays hundreds for it. If the seller refuses to give a receipt, would it not smell? Without even a cert, how do you even start to make your case or deter such seller(s)?
CyberET
if one needs a cert.. i doubt he/her will be able to notice the subtle difference..
in the end, i don't think it'll deter.. it'll only help in increasing sales figures.
ranchu8
QUOTE(CyberET @ Sat, 14 May 2005 1:47 am)
if one needs a cert.. i doubt he/her will be able to notice the subtle difference..
in the end, i don't think it'll deter.. it'll only help in increasing sales figures.
*



i think the issue is not whether an inexperienced buyer is able to tell the difference, in fact at times it may be difficult for an experienced buyer to tell the difference if the Ranchu has not "finished" developing, esp when they are not too old ... the issue is whether they have been cheated/ they got what they bargained for, was represented to them ... if they paid good money for Japanese bred/certain bloodline, they would expect certain traits to develop or hold eg certain traits of a Japanese tvr/certain bloodlines looking better when they are oyas ... not always the case but more likely/hopefully so (pls note that my posts are not intended to promote Japanese tvrs as opposed to Thai tvrs. i recognise that good Thai tvrs can be better than many Japanese tvrs and for the reputable Thai bloodlines, i would also like to see certs for them)

funny that you would surmise that certs would not deter ... is it not more likely for a cheat to bluff verbally, than if he produces fraudulent documentary certs?? the cheat may say "the buyer only said i said that what, but i did not say that" smile.gif

i also don't think that increased sales is the issue ... why not, if the buyer is more likely getting what he is paying for? in fact, LFSs should be getting their breeders to issue certs if this would enhance their sales? but they would then need to get the real thing first
CyberET
haiz, u didn't get my point, and simply repeated yourself.. nevermind smile.gif
ranchu8
QUOTE(CyberET @ Sat, 14 May 2005 11:40 am)
haiz, u didn't get my point, and simply repeated yourself.. nevermind smile.gif
*



thanks smile.gif we can agree to disagree smile.gif in fact, i am expecting retorts, particularly from one member good_very.gif
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Sat, 14 May 2005 12:25 pm)
in fact, i am expecting retorts, particularly from one member  good_very.gif
*


Who har, me?

I never expected a slew of replies for this thread,as I believe there are not many goldfish hobbyists blindly going after certs.Not in RG,at least.

My intention is not to let new goldfish hobbyists swayed into purchasing a goldfish at a high price just because it carries a cert.

As I have mentioned earlier, it makes no sense for a little known farm to call their goldfishes showgrades by way of printing a pic on a sheet of A4 paper using Microsoft Powerpoint, then spend $1 laminating it and jack up the price of the fish by $100.

As for reputable breeders producing certs for their fish,it may not be practical to print certs by the thousands for individual fish for export.And since goldfish changes quite dramatically in the first few months and the lifespan is short compared to koi and aro, the fish would have looked very different if it is not sold within a month or 2 from the time the cert is produced.Kekeke, imagine if a LFS tries to sell Chinmo's ranchu six months after he imported it, see the difference between the actual fish and when young.

Buy a fish because you like it, dont bother about it having a cert or not.That is the point I am trying to put across for this thread.
ranchu8
Hi CPIW, doesn't appear that there is any substantial disagreement between our posts? smile.gif

just one point, for tvrs that have reached some sort of development but not "finished" or more or less "finished", i'm not sure whether these breeders export them by the thousands smile.gif
ranchu8
Just saw this from Neo-Ranchu (US) website

"▼The NEO RANCHU Difference▼


● Each of our imported top-view Ranchu are from one of the famous Japanese bloodlines.


● All of our Ranchu are accompanied by a Letter of Authenticity certifying their bloodline and signed by the breeder.


● We maintain information on the parents of each Ranchu we import. As koi connoisseurs know, parent information including their adult size is very important in determining the potential of each fish."

http://www.neoranchu.com/aboutus.html
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