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CP
If you are wondering what the heck am I talking about, this is a literal translation from Hokkien "hoo tao, hoo tiong, hoo buay ".Pls note that this write up is not posted in "chit chat & gossip".And, this post may put a damper sad.gif on the majority of us hobbyists whom are likely to purchase fish to satisfy our indulgence instead of breeding them.

It was over lunch sometime last week when our bro Goldrush brought this to my attention,which I find it very logical.Basically what is happening in the commercial market is that for every brood of babies spawned, after the obvious rejects were culled, this brood is monitored and slowly categorised (by size) into hoo tao (fish head), hoo tiong (fish middle), hoo buay (fish tail).As the black babies grow in the first few weeks, some will outgrow others and it is only logical that those that grew at a faster rate will end up a bigger fish in future.Commercial farms will keep the potentials ones (hoo tao) so that they can sell it big in the later stages at a higher price.

So the first batch of fishes released into the market by them are the hoo buays (fish tail).These are the babies with the slowest growth rate in the brood.You can get very nice fishes, perfect colouration and shape etc but genetically, they will not end up a big fish.We can't tell from the LFS, but the commercial traders knew, cos they can compare from the same brood.

Next to be released are the hoo tiongs and the hoo taos are kept till they reach their max potential before putting them in the market.

Why are they doing this?Put yourself in their shoes.If you knew that this particular ranchu has potential, will you sell it for $30 as a 2" fish or keep it till its 8" and sell it for $500, or even more if it turned out to be 'showgrade'.?

So if you think that you can "save money" by trying to spot a potential small fish,buy it cheap and groom it to be a giant later, I would say the chances are very slim.Demoralising, right? How many of you managed to raise a purchased fish under 3" and kept till 8"?

I do not have much experience, but those goldfish that I bought (SV ranchus)which are under 3" max out at 6".My 7" ranchu and ryukins?I bought them at 7".Maybe my grooming skills are poor you might say, blush.gif , but I consider myself "above average" .

This market practice is not confined only to goldfish, but others as well, like koi.

Moral of the story?Be contented with keeping average looking fishes (like goldrush tongue.gif ), or you can spend big bucks buying proven fish, or breed them yourself!!

You may feel that life sucks, but others are making a living.
9Ranchus
Good one. yes.gif
CyberET
haiz.. sadly i'm not contented keeping average looking fish and not rich enough to spend big bucks buying proven fish, and too much work to breed them myself too tongue.gif
The Matrix
fish head curry lagi good.

in commercial point of view, some might release the fish head out as well. Usually fish head fetch in more money and the smaller ones are sold as feeders or cheap fish. At most keep a few good ones for breeding and the rest all release.

however, these only appear in farms which are smaller scale or home breeders. For big major farms, there is no way to do so. How to net out ponds several times the size of football field just to sort the size out ? only do it once a season.
arohong
Well said, I thought this is common knowledge. However her tao from my personal experience with other fishes are usually not the best, her tiongs seems to be more stable in what the breeder trys to achieve. rolleyes.gif
goldie
QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:29 pm)
If you are wondering what the heck am I talking about, this is a literal  translation from Hokkien "hoo tao, hoo tiong, hoo buay ".Pls note that this write up is not posted in "chit chat & gossip".And, this post may put a damper sad.gif  on the majority of us hobbyists whom are likely to purchase fish to satisfy our indulgence instead of breeding them.

It was over lunch sometime last week when our bro Goldrush brought this to my attention,which I find it very logical.Basically what is happening in the commercial market is that for every brood of babies spawned, after the obvious rejects were  culled, this brood is monitored and slowly categorised (by size) into hoo tao (fish head), hoo tiong (fish middle), hoo buay (fish tail).As the black babies grow in the first few weeks, some will outgrow others and it is only logical that those that grew at a faster rate will end up a bigger fish in future.Commercial farms will keep the potentials ones (hoo tao) so that they can sell it big in the later stages at a higher price.

So the first batch of fishes released into the market by them are the hoo buays (fish tail).These are the babies with the slowest growth rate in the brood.You can get very nice fishes, perfect colouration and shape etc but genetically, they will not end up a big fish.We can't tell from the LFS, but the commercial traders knew, cos they can compare from the same brood.

Next to be released are the hoo tiongs and the hoo taos are kept till they reach their max potential before putting them in the market.

Why are they doing this?Put yourself in their shoes.If you knew that this particular ranchu has potential, will you sell it for $30 as a 2" fish or keep it till its 8" and sell it for $500, or even more if it turned out to be 'showgrade'.?

So if you think that you can "save money" by trying to spot a potential small fish,buy it cheap and groom it to be a giant later, I would say the chances are very slim.Demoralising, right? How many of you managed to raise a purchased fish under 3" and kept till 8"?

I do not have much experience, but those goldfish that I bought (SV ranchus)which are under 3" max out at 6".My 7" ranchu and ryukins?I bought them at 7".Maybe my grooming skills are poor you might say, blush.gif , but I consider myself "above average" .

This market practice is not confined only to goldfish, but others as well, like koi.

Moral of the story?Be contented with keeping average looking fishes (like goldrush  tongue.gif ), or you can spend big bucks buying proven fish, or breed them yourself!!

You may feel that life sucks, but others are making a living.
*



Agree. Agree. yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif
goldrush
Nice write out cpiw good_very.gif but you dont have to quote me leh.While fish head may grow faster than its cohort they may not show favorable physical attributes other than size so the better fish usually comes from the tiong ones ( like the bell shaped curve...the bulk of the population.....the norm)The extremes are never readily and generallyaccepted just like genius and the imbecile!
in koi the size and length does matter and generally there are not many physical handicaps as compared to goldfish,so fish head would be in better demand(especially non patterned koi)



ps strange that I can acess to this site only now but not in the day??????????
9Ranchus
QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:36 pm)

ps strange that I can acess to this site only now but not in the day??????????
*




Same Computer? If yes, do you use SPYWARE or FIREWALL type software? Some trojans may be at play..........
goldrush
QUOTE(9Ranchus @ Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:48 pm)
Same Computer? If yes, do you use SPYWARE or FIREWALL type software? Some trojans may be at play..........
*




Both my desk top and lap top cannot access to RG leh
Until come home use wireless connectivity then can
No I dont use the above softwares.Do I need a recovery?
ranchu8
Hmm ... looks like everyone agree with the post ... cpiw2002, may i ask whether the post is with reference to all types of goldfish, generally so or specifically some?
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Tue, 28 Jun 2005 2:15 am)
Hmm ... looks like everyone agree with the post ... cpiw2002, may i ask whether the post is with reference to all types of goldfish, generally so or specifically some?
*


Specifically TVR !!!!.. hysterical.gif

Nah joking.Refering not only to goldfish, but other ornamental fishes as well.
ranchu8
A breeder keeping his baby which is a potential big fish, to sell it at higher price later sounds logical. He would likely sell it when it's bigger but not necessarily when it is near its max for various reasons like fish may not appear nice when big, there are risks of death disease, too pricey, not every one likes a big or old fish etc; logically, he would sell it when it can fetch optimal returns taking into account ease of sale eg we don't see many big big Japanese tvrs being sold in Sing, probably much more readily available in Japan; i would imagine people would be generally keener in tosai/nisai rather than an oya. I think the reasoning applies for other goldfish? I don't know about koi, but if I were keeping them I would prefer to buy them young, balanced, colour and importantly bloodline i think. Do koi keepers usually prefer to pay for expensive big mature koi or pay say a fraction of the price for a say 5/6 inch one? Just talking as i don't know commercial breeders to give an accurate picture.

Sorry but i'm a bit slow in understanding the main point being made: is it that a breeder will sell his fish that have a good tail first, then good body and finally good head?
arohong
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 1:33 am)
A breeder keeping his baby which is a potential big fish, to sell it at higher price later sounds logical.  He would likely sell it when it's bigger but not necessarily when it is near its max for various reasons like fish may not appear nice when big, there are risks of death disease, too pricey, not every one likes a big or old fish etc; logically, he would sell it when it can fetch optimal returns taking into account ease of sale eg we don't see many big big Japanese tvrs being sold in Sing, probably much more readily available in Japan; i would imagine people would be generally keener in tosai/nisai rather than an oya.  I think the reasoning applies for other goldfish? I don't know about koi, but if I were keeping them I would prefer to buy them young, balanced, colour and importantly bloodline i think. Do koi keepers usually prefer to pay for expensive big mature koi or pay say a fraction of the price for a say 5/6 inch one? Just talking as i don't know commercial breeders to give an accurate picture.

Sorry but i'm a bit slow in understanding the main point being made: is it that a breeder will sell his fish that have a good tail first, then good body and finally good head?
*



Bro

U missed the point completely! cpiw2002 is referring to a spawn of fish, in this spawn fries can be divided into 'her tao - bigger fries', 'her tiong - mid size ones' and 'her buay - the smaller ones' by size. Hope this puts things into better perspective for you.

smile.gif
CP
QUOTE(arohong @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:46 am)
Bro

U missed the point completely! cpiw2002 is referring to a spawn of fish, in this spawn fries can be divided into 'her tao - bigger fries', 'her tiong - mid size ones' and 'her buay - the smaller ones' by size. Hope this puts things into better perspective for you.

smile.gif
*


Thanks for clarifying on my behalf. smile.gif
ranchu8
Hey AroHong, thanks.

Does it mean that the post makes the following main point: breeder keeps bigger "babies" to sell them last and sells the smallest "babies" first. Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?

Sorry, i'm rather slow and also don't understand Hokkien "hoo tao, hoo tiong, hoo buay".
peace.gif whistle.gif
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35 am)

Does it mean that the post makes the following main point: breeder keeps bigger "babies" to sell them last and sells the smallest "babies" first.  Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?

*



Yes, my friend, you just hit the G spot.
white horse T1
i only believe in grooming fish to its max potential iwithin my capability. - not max size.

i tot we are all told that "size does not matter" now tongue.gif
ranchu8
QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37 pm)
Yes, my friend, you just hit the G spot.
*


Hmm, since the above is the point of the post, does it not bring us to
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 1:33 am)
A breeder keeping his baby which is a potential big fish, to sell it at higher price later sounds logical.  He would likely sell it when it's bigger but not necessarily when it is near its max for various reasons like fish may not appear nice when big, there are risks of death disease, too pricey, not every one likes a big or old fish etc; logically, he would sell it when it can fetch optimal returns taking into account ease of sale eg we don't see many big big Japanese tvrs being sold in Sing, probably much more readily available in Japan; i would imagine people would be generally keener in tosai/nisai rather than an oya.  I think the reasoning applies for other goldfish? I don't know about koi, but if I were keeping them I would prefer to buy them young, balanced, colour and importantly bloodline i think. Do koi keepers usually prefer to pay for expensive big mature koi or pay say a fraction of the price for a say 5/6 inch one? Just talking as i don't know commercial breeders to give an accurate picture.

*



If it does, does it mean that the conclusion "Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?" is incorrect? I suppose the chances are not great but are they slim because of the "hoo tao, hoo tiong, hoo buay"? Is the greater problem our grooming of the fish, ie space, water, food etc.
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 1:40 pm)
Hmm, since the above is the point of the post, does it not bring us to
If it does, does it mean that the conclusion "Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?" is incorrect?  I suppose the chances are not great but are they slim because of the "hoo tao, hoo tiong, hoo buay"?  Is the greater problem our grooming of the fish, ie space, water, food etc.
*


Lawrence my friend,

Sometimes I am reluctant to answer your queries because I am always bombarded with more questions which are difficult to understand.Feels like I am under cross-examination wacko.gif

IMO if you already have got the hoo buay the fish will max out at a smaller pre-determined size despite the perfect upbringing be it the water parameters or its nutrition.

And I think this piece of mine is most likely a hoo buay......... 1 year keeping still only 4"......I hope it hasn't max out yet.....cry.gif

http://www.RafflesGold.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=28152
arohong
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35 am)
Hey AroHong, thanks. 

Does it mean that the post makes the following main point: breeder keeps bigger "babies" to sell them last and sells the smallest "babies" first.  Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?

Sorry, i'm rather slow and also don't understand Hokkien "hoo tao, hoo tiong, hoo buay".
peace.gif  whistle.gif
*



Hi ranchu8

I personally feel that the bigger fishes are the healthlier ones followed by the medium size one and the smaller fishes are the weaker from the spawn.

If given the same amount of care the bigger fishes are likely to end up as bigger adults, however I personally feel that the medium size ones are likely to be the ones that potential winners come from.

Just a personal opinion. rolleyes.gif
CP
On the other hand there are honest breeders who value their integrity; I have seen a batch of koi from the same spawn being sold, the differences in sizes are obvious and needless to say the smaller of the siblings are priced more cheaply.They make it known to you that if you purchase the cheaper ones it will not end up as big as its siblings.

But then again kois from these breeders usually command a premium in the first place!!
ranchu8
cpiw, just raising issues as i know you like some other view point ... remember? provoking laugh.gif me to post something different
The Matrix
u guys talking goldfish or tropical fish ?
CP
We know so far this is a practice for goldfish and kois, not too sure for other tropical fish such as aro or discus, maybe you can enlighten?
The Matrix
QUOTE(cpiw2002 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36 pm)
We know so far this is a practice for goldfish and kois, not too sure for other tropical fish such as aro or discus, maybe you can enlighten?
*


erh ... Chinese practise ? Thailand practise ? Japan practise ?
or the Mongolian practise ?
CP
Thai and Jap?
ranchu8
Good. Matrix, what are your views? might as well, throw in also ... Chinese practise?

(edit) ps for the Japan practise, maybe the query should be with regard to their commercial breeders
The Matrix
1-2 wks
birth defects - cull

3-4 wks
tail no good, body no good, head no good, balance no good - cull. dun care if it's super doper color. all black wat, where got color.

5-12 wks
next the so call major flaws - no future to be in the top mid range - sell.

by 13th wks u got 90% gone from day 1 and start picking your top stock. Usually in the range of 0.1%-0.5%. So 99.5% will be gone as weeks go by after 18-22 wks.

No matter "head, middle or tail", the decising factor are still the feature and the skill of the breeder to identify "potential".

Most sell their lower range fish by size. 1 price for certain size range. Simple way of doing business. Hand pick of course different liao.

As the fish grow bigger, price remains tagged to size and possible splitting into individual country grading system. but of course if the fish are much better grades, likely to have been taken out by pro and keep separately. Like the special Aquarama TungHoi grand champ lor. 1 in 100 of K for high grade fish.

If talking about bell curve, then the curve is really sharp and steep for good fish.
the curve will be skew to the right for price.
and the distribution for size could be distorted if culling occurred. but likely u see a slightly skew to left for that.

Simple lah, let me ask u, how many spawn can one home breeder handle ? Dun use Geert hor, he got a big space. I wish my neighbour share the same hobby and I can use his balcony. hahahaha. then i will definitely breed my butterfly dragon.
ranchu8
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35 am)
breeder keeps bigger "babies" to sell them last and sells the smallest "babies" first.  Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?
*



Thanks Matrix for the informative post. Sorry, i a bit slow again but can you pls elaborate on whether you would agree with the above? smile.gif Doesn't appear like you do? peace.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:58 am)
breeder keeps bigger "babies" to sell them last and sells the smallest "babies" first.  Due to this potential known to the breeders, chances are "very slim" that we can buy a small fish to groom it into a big fish?

Thanks Matrix for the informative post. Sorry, i a bit slow again but can you pls elaborate on whether you would agree with the above?  smile.gif Doesn't appear like you do?  peace.gif
*



Depends. smallest baby still got chance to grow mah. Unless u talking as a commercial point of view that $$$ is the only thing u looking at. Then of course, you will not keep those "waste time" things. But to the hobbyists like us, this is the chance to grab those potential yet small fish.

Some bigger young fish might not turn out good as well. But it does fetch some $$$ and recoup the cost of breeding. That's where you find in the lfs with reasonably big, more costly fish but not really outstanding.

The problem is where does the breeder stands. Also does the breeder knows what is a good potential fish. And subjected to how they grade their fishes.
CP
Following the footsteps of Goldrush and White Horse keeping cheapskate ranchus, I did a major revamp to my collection about a month ago, stocking my tank with cheapo ranchus.

I purchased 22 pieces of cheap ranchus at one go from a retiree who breeds them 'to earn some pocket money' , all of which are from the same spawn and measured about one and a half inches each at the time of purchase.

I had intended to start a new thread on this but after a couple of weeks the phenomenon of fish head fish middle fish tail was so obvious that I decided to post the outcome of findings in this thread.

Here was what it looked like a month ago, my 7ft tank housing 22 new occupants.It became a 7ft quarantine tank. hysterical.gif

\"IPB
CP
And so after just one month, the FHFMFT phenomena became even more apparent.

Same spawn,same environment,same water parameters,same amount of food.Yet their disparity in sizes already ranged from 2 inches (smallest) to 3.5 inches (biggest).All were about 1.5 inches when purchased.

Here you see the biggest and the smallest of the lot.

The biggest:
\"IPB



The smallest:
\"IPB



Together:
\"IPB

\"IPB
CP
It is quite impossible to predict how big the fish will turn out by mere observation.But by raising a batch from the same spawn,you will know which will turn up a bigger fish.This is where the breeders/commercial traders have the advantage over us, by releasing fish that has poor potential for growth earlier to the market and having a choice whether to release or keep those with potential, to sell them at a higher price in future.

Statistically there should be 6 categories in my collection :
1)Fish head nice body shape
2)Fish head lousy body shape
3)Fish middle nice body shape
4)Fish middle lousy body shape
5)Fish tail nice body shape
6)Fish tail lousy body shape

Couldn't find any fish in category (1). longpia.gif

Cat (3) and (4) forms the majority, following the rule of the statistical bell curve.

Here are some Cat (3) fishes:
\"IPB

\"IPB

\"IPB

\"IPB
ranchu8
hi CP, how old are they suppose to be, how long had seller had kept them?
CP
Cat (5) fish:
These will probably be released into the market at a very early stage.How many of you have purchased a nice small fish intending to groom it only to realise that it did not grow up to a big fish despite perfect upbringing conditions. dry.gif
\"IPB



And lastly, Cat (6) fish.Fish tail lousy body shape.I have about 4 or 5 of these. mad.gif
\"IPB

\"IPB
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:05 pm)
hi CP, how old are they suppose to be, how long had seller had kept them?
*


Not too sure.How long does it take a fry to reach 1.5 inches?
The Matrix
QUOTE(CP @ Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:05 pm)

*



Keep watch on this ....
ranchu8
er ... i think the recent posts support the view that in a spawn, some will grow faster and better; not enough to support the thread smile.gif
ranchu8
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:36 pm)
Keep watch on this ....
*


on a lighter note ... any takers for this at $50 cos it's gonna go up to at least $300 biggrin.gif
desireless
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:36 pm)
Keep watch on this ....
*


Wa Matrix.... Your SVR selection skill has improved! clapping.gif:
goldrush
Not bad,not bad some of these cheapo have nice shapes good_very.gif

But color is abit dull(indoor kept cant be help)Headgrowth yet to be determined.

Maybe sell one good cheapo able to recuperate all cost of all the 22 in another few

months time

Welcome to the Cheapy Cheapy Cheap Cheap gang

goldrush
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:07 am)
on a lighter note ... any takers for this at $50 cos it's gonna go up to at least $300  biggrin.gif
*


Half price.......$25 take.I deliver to you some more!!

Kekeke...joking.Soon I will put up my "culls" (Cat 6) for adoption.
CP
After reading feline's thread on spawning, I forgot to add, some of these already started to spawn.At such a young tender age......
The Matrix
QUOTE(desireless @ Mon, 05 Sep 2005 12:42 am)
Wa Matrix.... Your SVR selection skill has improved!  clapping.gif:
*


Aiyo, how many fries and young fish died in my hands ...
at least ah lau got a decent looking fish from his 22 of them. not bad liao. when i do culling, 1 in a 1000 can make in to next round, worst then Superstar leh.
The Matrix
QUOTE(CP @ Mon, 05 Sep 2005 9:19 am)
After reading feline's thread on spawning, I forgot to add, some of these already started to spawn.At such a young tender age......
*


young fish will never give good result. at least a yearling to an adult of 2 yrs old.
desireless
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 05 Sep 2005 9:46 am)
Aiyo, how many fries and young fish died in my hands ...
at least ah lau got a decent looking fish from his 22 of them. not bad liao. when i do culling, 1 in a 1000 can make in to next round, worst then Superstar leh.
*


Ya man... CP is very very lucky... good_very.gif

At least you still have 1 good one in 1000. I have tried two times at P1 level only and have to accept one unwillingly for keeping purpose. I find that if you match 2 different lineages of SVR, deformity rate is as high as 60%.
goldrush
I would like to expand on the subject purported by cp on the development of fish and the classification of fish development by virtue of its sizes. Far too often we may subscribe to this belief and degrade a particular fish if we do not recognize another cause of concern and that is feeding behaviors.

Fish feed at different levels and food are formulated to suit their specific needs. Surface feeders, mid level feeders and bottom feeders are broad spectrum classification base on the nature of feeding and dwelling of respective species.
Generally speaking goldfish has the luxury to belong to all levels though the evolution of their mouth parts tend to yearn towards bottom feeders or browser like carps.

By the power of your observation, I believe if you have a keen eye, you would have recognized some behavioral feeding pattern why some fish lack behind in terms of development apart from genetics.This fish I call them as JIU CHENG(wo wo) or PAH JIAU.

From my personal experience I have pick up some poor feeders which have shown poor competitive skill to feed well, missing food thrown at all levels. We tend to succumb into giving extra more feed to benefit these born losers but ultimately overfeeding the more dominant siblings/occupants.Unable to compete against its more aggressive counterparts,this fish tend to develop poorly despite sharing all the same environment and enjoying the same luxury of space and water management.I think to harness its potential,this has to be recognized early ,isolate and,feed them separately in order to nurture them to their ultimate potential .
Just like an experienced educator being able to pick up slow and lacking learners among a cohort, we as keepers should exercise prudence in recognizing weak and slow developers and give these the extra attention to realize their potentials .It is not my intention to contradict cp’s inference but I rather view it as a complement to his excellent article on fish development with my supplementary findings.
thinking.gif
thinking.gif
thinking.gif


Regards
goldrush
CP
As for my case, in my observation during the morning and evening feeds, all 22 fishes consume more or less the same amount of feed.All start and finish at the same time.There are no fast or slow feeders.

I conclude that their growth are already predetermined genetically. tada.gif
namaste
QUOTE(CP @ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37 pm)
Yes, my friend, you just hit the G spot.
*



hello CP,

I am not sure about your comment about commercial selling pattern.
But for me, I won't pay more because of bigger size. And I agree with white horse's statement.

But I think if the more knowledgable a hobbyist is, the tougher the commercial trade will have to work for your money. Of course, the knowledge must be valid, not just by listening.

Namaste
CP
A futher update on the disparity in sizes of the FH,FM,FT phenomena:

Here's the size difference in Sept 05:
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=34044

And here's how different they are today(pic taken 12 May 06):
IPB Image


The biggest one:
IPB Image


And the smallest:
IPB Image



The many different sizes from a same spawn,same feeding,same water parameters,same upbringing conditions:
IPB Image
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