Ever wonder what is the chloramine level in Singapore?I have heard our water now contains both Chlorine as well as chloramines.(from cp of course).So if bros here use water conditioner,containing NaHSo3 (hypo) to rid off Cl he has only solve half the problem.To begin with,please read the labels carefully that your conditioner must rid your in coming water of both CL as wll as chloramines.If any bros here know the level of chloramines here, will be much appreciated if you can share its value as its significance will be highlighted below.

First we must regard any level of Ammonia as intolerable in any system as it will bring irreversible damages to gills,etc.
Now we all know that Chloramine is a combination of Chlorine and ammonia. One of the differences between Chlorine and Chloramines is the length of effectiveness in the water. With Chlorine it is 48 Hours, with Chloramines it's up to 20 odd Days. Gone are the days when you could aerate the water for 24 hours and dissipate it if chloramines are added.It takes another week or so for Ammonia to dissipate completely if you intend not to use any conditioners.Now using Sodium Thiosulphate, or any of the commercial de-chlorinators in Chloramine treated water, leaves behind a small amount of Ammonia. That's why you need to use something (chemical or mineral) to rid of it when using treated (tap) water.


Things that can remove your residual Ammonia
1) Activated Carbon which is expensive and non rechargeable,non specific in its adsorption.
2) One of those commercial preparation,eg Ammonia binding products(Amquel)
3)Zeolite (rocks and powder) is used for Ammonia removal as well as for controlling PH. However the downside to Zeolite is that you're not able to use salt for treating bacteria/parasites because salt will re-release the ammonia from the Zeolite rocks. Then it has to be regenerated after a certain period of time which requires removing the zeolite.

Footnote on Zeolites

Zeolite will adsorb Ammonia immediately when added to the water if no salt is present. It can be recharged by a 3% Salt solution.
How Much to Use
1 gram of Zeolite will remove 1.5milligrams of ammonia from a liter of water. Take an Ammonia reading of your pond in PPM (parts per million). Divide by 1.5. Multiply by the numbers of Liters in your pond (3.78 Liters = 1 Gallon). The final volume is the number of grams needed to treat your pond (1 level teaspoon of Zeolite equals 6 Grams).
Recharging Zeolite
You can also recharge Zeolite to about 78% of it's normal adsorption rate by soaking it in a salt water solution (1lb. of salt to 3 gals. of Water) for 9 hours or more. Remember to rinse the Zeolite before returning to tank

Now comes the problem
Unless you do a 50% or more water change, this small amount of residual Ammonia is not harmful and will be consumed by your bio filter rather quickly(but bear in mind most of us are using limited filtration system…sponge filter) But let me hypothetically show you its danger should you not know its significance

Assume you are doing a 20% water change and there is 2 PPM chloramine in the water. 2 PPM chloramine neutralized with sodium thiosulfate becomes 0.4 (20% water exchange) multiply by 17/51.5 (molecular weight of ammonia divided by molecular weight chloramine) = 0.132ppm of NH3 being released

0.4X 17 = 0.132
51.5

But if you do 100 % water change and there is a huge 5 PPM chloramine concentration in the makeup water.then we would end up with
5X 17 = 1.65 ppm of NH3
51.5
The 5ppm chloramine reaction with sodium thiosulfate gets to yield approximately 1.65 PPM of Ammonia and that’s a real big problem !
So bros beware of this danger despite I have deliberately hypothesized the situation.So till we can be sure of a concrete level of Chloramine(which I suspect should be around 2ppm) being disclosed,a partial water changes is highly recommended if no conditioner is added and 100% change only if you have added a “relevant” conditioner or else utilizing 1 week old,aged water

This article serves as a supplement to the one I wrote on water changes with special thanks to ranchu8 for his input on CL/Chloramine queries ,our RG water connoisseur jHansolo for his technical advice and expertise,cp for his participation in every single thread for wat ever reasons and of course the Matrix for his continual sparring in a very positive way.
So read the above before you reach for your TAP ,you may be adding a problem or two without realizing it……….


Adding to your Mondays blue

goldrush

shouldn't your biofilter be able to handle the ammonia spike? if it can't, i doubt it can handle goldfish's ammonia output

wah seh ... my favourite topic. but lazy lah dun ask me to go further than this ... local water not so high in chloramines lah. simple lah, if anyone got a NH3 test kit, just dose the normal sodium thiosulphate and test for CL- and NH3+ ... from the result, one can calculate the concentration of the NH3CL complex.

one thing to note, multiple test will be require, 1 test is not conclusive. and quite a number of factors involve to calculate the real number.

Doc, 1.xxx ppm of NH3 is nothing compare to Goldfish waste. If one can get 50ppm of NO3+, just imagine the among of NH3+ ppm the filter got to work.

er,... i don't quite understand the above statement. My question would be: whether 2 ppm of Chloramine is as toxic as 2 ppm nitrates? I really doubt toxicity is the same. Toxicity of 3ppm ammonia is vastly different from 3 ppm nitrates, and yes i understand that toxicity varies with pH, temp etc ... how about the usual temp in Sing with pH about 8?

(edit) pls excuse me if i'm asking something totally different from the above statement

Precisely,the biofilter should be sufficient unless the bioload (no. of fish/feeding etc)is over and above what it can handle.No wonder Desireless has multiple sponges to his fish ratio to overcome this problem.Bear in mind it is an additional burden(NH3) to a under performing filter if your setup is inadequate to deal with NH3 spike so to speak

Lunch time liao

maybe i rephrase my statement ... how many ppm of NH3 to get 50ppm of NO3.

My very own ten commandments on chloramines:

1)Chloramines are in our water for the last few years already

2)To rid it u have to purchase conditioner that say "removes chlorine and chloramine"

3)There are no adverse effects at all from the ammonia released as a result from the break-up of Cl-NH3 bond after the addition of anti-chloramine for my bio tank

4)For my office's 3ft tank 50% water change twice weekly without administering anything so far no problem

5)My friend 80% water change on alternate days, no addition of chemicals also no problem

6)Anti-chloramine is cheap, no harm to overdose so need not stinge on it

7)If it is safe enough for us to drink straight from tap, it should be safe enough for our goldfish to live though it may not be the best way to upkeep it

8)For facts and figures or chemical reactions formulas you have to ask Matrix, or you can give some datas to Goldrush and he may work out the answer in numbers (like the example he worked out considering molecular weight,piang!!!! )

9)This topic will be of interest to my friend ranchu8 but with his queries may end up a 100 page thread........

10)I prefer not to dwell into figures, cos' only a hobby not rocket science, but will be very pleased if fellow forumers can quantify the discussion in numbers nonetheless. Let me just

hahahahaha cp, i got to use spreadsheet to calculate molecular atomic weight. that's atomic science ... hahahaha.

but what the heck, point #10 very important.

Actually as Goldrush pointed out, CL-NH3 combination can cause problem to the fish tissues but not immediately causing death. It is Cl2 ( in some form of HOCl, OCl- ) that will have deadly effect, fast and fury. I believe some members here sure to experience this before.

That's why many hobbyists did not use any form of anti-chlorine related products and still feel no effect.

So other than the commercial reagents to breakdown chloramines, something else could have break it down without us noticing it ....

don't put 9 as a commandment la?

as for 6), I believe Jhansolo may have raised a different view on this if the antichloramine is thiosulphate? (I may be wrong )

er, are the above different views on the same point, or different points?

er, maybe pls disregard this as Matrix mentioned more in his post, and don't wish to start a debate over this

Chlorine,and more recently chloramine are toxic compounds added to our human drinking water for our own protection and NOT FISH(sorry cp what is safe for us to drink is toxic to our friends even at low levels.
Now I brought up this thread on chloramine is to specifically highlight the danger of unknowingly and unintentionally introducing Ammonia into our system.One bro (Ohaiyo)had pm me on LFS selling some crystals or conditioner able to rid off any contaminants in our water during water change and I think I have to educate the forum on some ill-informed LFS selling off magic potion/crystal to overcome this problem.Ammonia is deadly even at very low level,so a reading of 0 must be used as a prerequsite.From my understanding a dose of 0.6ppm is able to show toxic effect on fish.Now by toxic level,I mean able to cause stress ie fish has to strive to thrive and not lethal level where it is fatal.Goldfish ,as many agree has comparable higher tolerant level to ammonia level but that does not equate it being able to thrive eternally under such condition.These prolong stress subjected upon the fish will invariably lead to problems.
Let me tell you another 2 additional findings


Will a carbon filter attached to my faucet(tap) remove it?

Yes and no. As we have discussed, chloramine (NH2Cl) is a combination of ammonia and chlorine. Passing chloraminated tapwater through activated carbon gives us this reaction:

Activated Carbon (AC) + NH2Cl + H2O ---> Ammonia (NH3) + H+ + Cl-

As you can see, the chloramine compound is destroyed. So yes, the filter removed the chloramine. But the ammonia is still present in the water!
You may find me contradicting on this as I had written AC being capable of removing NH3 but I must say that AC has no specific affinity on NH3 alone and it will probably vacuum up any contaminants and thus reduce its efficacy in dealing with NH3 alone


Will a dechlorinating water conditioner remove chloramine?

Yes and no. Regular dechlorinators(Hypo) remove the "chlorine" part of chloramine but leave the ammonia in the water. "Technically speaking" the chloramine is removed, but the water is not safe for fish. Some manufacturers of water conditioners state their product removes chloramine, but fail to tell you that the ammonia is still present in the water. In addition, many regular dechlorinating water conditioners are not "strong" enough to completely neutralize all of the chloramine. This results in both free ammonia and chloramine in your aquarium. You should use a water conditioner formulated especially for chloramine as cp has highlighted.

No figures for now

goldfish keepers here fall into 2 main categories - those who keep their pets in green water and those who keep in filtered tank.Both systems have one thing in common:- tackling ammonia.The former uses free floating algae, the latter nitrifying bacteria.So long as you have a stable system doing the job, resultant ammonia from chloramines should not be an issue.

Unless your filter system is not mature, or you have a collapse of green water,then you will have to be concerned with the resultant ammonia, but then again you should be more concerned with the ammonia from the fishes in the first place.Unless someone can tell me that ammonia from fish is negligible compared to ammonia from chloramine.........hmmm then I am not sure liao. Is it??

But just how much ammonia will result from the breaking of chloramine,well, we will have to dwell into figures liao.Can someone advise how much ammonia will be produced from 2ppm chloramine (as stated from PUB website)?Any volunteers?

The only figure that I can contribute is that for a tank with 100L per fish, 5 feedings a day and 80% weekly water change, all ammonia produce translates into approx. 40ppm of nitrates per week. Some shd be able to work backwards to determine how much ammonia is required to obtain 40ppm, and since the amount of ammonia arising from tap water is also known, the ammonia contribution ratio from tap water/ fish can be roughly worked out.

Any volunteers?


Before i sign off here is the first search result from yahoo:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm

Hi cp

Assuming 2ppm is the correct level of Chloramine and you are executing 100% H2O change




then it will yield approximately : 2X17 divide by 51.5

=0.66




Accordingly enough to stress the fish liao should you have inadequate bio filtration to cope with its introduction

Not a debate, dun worry. I understand what u trying to ask. Sometime, it's not so simple. #9 will start to work if you continue .... hahahahaha.

Remember 1 thing, the company responsible for municipal water is meant for human, the guidelines are provided by tonnes of research papers and human life comes first. Try going to a poor rural village somewhere out there and turn that tap on. The first thing comes to your mind is "where is my Newater" .....

I still remembered bathing using well water in a small remote island off Batam. The old head village master told me water can drink, got fish inside. I looked down the well, deep, dark ... hullo fishy ... echo. yeah man, can drink.

That's TOTAL NH3 ... not unionized NH3 ions. If after water change and we still get 0.66ppm, fishes balek kumpong liao.

Let's based on the highest pH of 9 and our local tap temperature of 26 degC, probably land us in the 0.100~0.135 ppm. Just above the deadly zone. And for many who after water change and seeing fish lying down, stoned and death, it means you have to re-adjust your water changing method and look into the filter. A few tests won't cost a lot, but worth a lot of knowledge on why and how it happen.

Of course, we should not encourage hobbyists to keep fish at low pH but rather we should elaborate on the proper care of the filtration system and manage the water parameters properly.

Should one keep fish in higher pH or should it be lower, let the fish tell the rest of the story.

Today we exposed a lot of common mistakes and misunderstanding of many hobbyists. More than enough for many to absorb.

So am I still the super kiasu to use so many test kits and do so many tests ?

Anyway, your statement on this rather broad based not fully accurate "Some manufacturers of water conditioners state their product removes chloramine, but fail to tell you that the ammonia is still present in the water. ".

Several companies that have well known products have special chemicals used instead of sodium thiosulphate. These chemicals are known to react with both ammonia and chlorine ions and form several salts. Rather safe to use provided that the basic knowledge of aquarium keeping is attained.

You are SHARP Matrix,that’s exactly what I’m trying to draw forum to.Becos of this discussion I hope bros will further understand wat test kits and NH3 is all about.The 0.66 does represent TOTAL AMMONIA,infact most test kit read off this value. There is a big difference between Total Ammonia (the sum) vice Free Ammonia and Bound Ammonia (the parts of the sum). What most of us want to know is what the Free Ammonia level is in our water. It is the Free Ammonia that is going to do the most damage to the gills of our fish and eventually cause death if not countered.

To know the free unionized ammonia out of the known total ammonia value you have refer to the chart provided within all NH3 test kit.Read off the value against pH and temperature to get a multiplier which you multiply against your total NH3 and you will get a rough estimate of your free NH3.

Secondly you brought up another good point of conducting several times a test to get conclusive result
An ammonia test conducted when declor is present will show false readings. Water with no ammonia whatever may test positive for ammonia. Conversely, water with high ammonia levels can read as ammonia-free.
So choose a declor that is compatible with your test kit!

Run this simple experiment to ensure you are doing it right
Step 1: Fill a bucket with tap water. Test this untreated water. Keep this test sample as your untreated reference. It should show no ammonia.
Step 2: Add declor to the bucket at the recommended dose. Test this water and compare it to Step #1. If there isn't any difference in color or turbidity (ie, no "haze" is present compared to the treated sample), continue below.
Step 3: Add 10 drops of household ammonia to the bucket. Stir well and test. If this sample shows positive and doesn't have any unusual haze, Eureka!


I think we have achievd our aim in our discussion on NH3 here and would like to end without further figures and confusion


Regards,

goldrush

I thought this is a controlled item in singapore?

Try windex

http://www.windex.com/windex/

or any household Ammonia based products to see if you can get any reading

Ammonium Carbonate can be found in Phoon Huat. React with a few drops of hypochloride acid, bleaching solution, u got your home make inorganic chloramine solution. hahahaha.

and please dun take a deep breath when u do it. More deadly then our body gas outlet.

Doc, I not sharp ... just amour piercing.

Hope the readers will just remember, Keep fish, first keep water. A very good chinese saying and they are never wrong since the day goldfish are domestically breeded.

As for products that claims to treat chloramine, I think there are two categories:

1)Breaks the NH3 / Cl bond, treats the Cl part but leaves the NH3 free
2)Breaks the bond, and treats both the freed Cl and NH3

Some of the products performing type (2) are listed in the link I provided earlier.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm


Most LFS carry type (1) , I think.Usually the bottle will not state whether it treats both the compound, but the brand that I use, Fish Guard from Ocean Free (type 1),did state the following:

"Water treated with FishGuard breaks the chloramine bond.Use XXX brand zeolites or YYY brand beneficial bacteria to remove ammonia".

oui ... wrong info leh ... Windex which label as Ammonia-K but it's only smell like ammonia but not ammonia.

The main ingredient is Isopropanol - C3H8O or Alcohol only !!! Even having propylene or ethylene u dun get ammonia.

Give me ethanol CH3CH2OH anytime.............

Many fish hobbyists or LFS owners commonly refer to the addition of chloramines as PUB's Newater.They know that the garment had added something into the water supply, the timing is somewhere around the campaigning of 'Newater' so these two different items are commonly misunderstood and intertwined.Very often when things go wrong during water changes you hear them cursing " KNN, see lang Newater, nin peh eh hoo ko chai see liao".

You can term the addition of chloramines as 'new water', but not Newater.

Newater is drinking water produced from treated waste water (or 'sai chooi' if u prefer to call it) thru reverse osmosis.Not from our tap yet.

Another type of water is by de-salination, from sea water.

Paiseh,Paiseh,Sorry did I give wrong info.I thought most window cleaners are ammonia- based.Thousand apologies.This prove how SUCKS I am when household products are concerned………….

Better ask my dog to pipi for instant ammonia! Hey Bruno where are yoooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuu………

ONZ lah. And best to add some peanuts and kalamari ...

And nicotine..............

Talks like that in front doctor is dangerous

The doc doesn't drink,he doesn't smoke, he doesn't gamble but there is one last vice for him.

quit drinking, got social help
quit smoking, got social help
quit gambling, got social help
quit doc's bad habit with social help ??? ok, beats me.

I'm a bit busy to reply to all your accusation
Have to speak to my attorney to see any defamatory remarks are made....

Ok ok ... let the hyena do the job ... blame them ...

Since we stop here on the discussion of Chloramine level in Singapore ... let's summarize the points ...

1. Singapore water does have Chloramine.
2. Neutralising Chloramine is not a rocket science. There are several means to do so and easily available in the lfs.
3. Look at the commercial product labels which does neutralise Chloramine and Chlorine. Some products might not neutralise the resultant ammonia during the chemical reaction. Most of the branded commercial products are able to perform the necessary neutralisation. Only a small handful of cheaper products do not.
4. As long as one has a good running cycled filter working, ammonia produced by the general dechlorination will not have adverse reaction to the living organisms.
5. Commercial products are not costly at all compare to the cost of the fish. Don't be stingy on it.
6. Water tests may be conducted but it is up to the individual.
7. Even local water is meant for human consumption, it may be toxic to the fish. Do not go out there to buy cheap offer products immediately. Read thru the discussion and understand it thoroughly.

Most importantly, I must stress, arm yourself with knowledge, not cheaper offer products. If you do not understand the product, test it or ask for detail explaination from the seller or manufacturer.

A very good summary, Matrix.No heavy stuff,easily digested and straight to the point.

My only regret is that we do not have anyone from PUB participating in this thread.Their input would have been very valuable.Anyone here with links to the PUB?

Why do I get the feeling that Matrix might be the "very senior personnel from PUB" whom 'someone' has "been communicating with"

I don't know Matrix's PUB relation but in RG we certainly can elect him to be our senior consultant in PUBic Affairs................

Great summary. Appreciated the simplicity. It suits people like me who cannot handle science and maths.

Q : I was told Chloramine, unlike Chorine, cannot be removed by ageing water over night. It can only be neutralised by introducing anti Cholramine. In this case, what benefits are there to still age our water?

Hi 9 ranchus
First, to use aged water is to dissipate all chlorine and not chloramines in a relative short period for those that don’t use sodium thiosulphate (hypo) for neutralizing the Chlorine.As for the residual NH3 dissociates from Chloramine,as being discussed its value are negligible, easily coped with by your biofilter or any propriety products if you are not comfortable with its presence.It is the Chlorine from the tap that does the “most” damage rather than the ammonia so neutralizing it sets precedence!So if you are still confuse please buy the 2 in 1 preparation for ease of execution.(cp has provided a link on this already)

Regards
goldrush

Hi, Goldrush.
Thanks. In short, there is no purpose to age water if Chlorine is not present in our water - right? There are some hear say about PUB no longer uses Chlorine (Chloramine only) in our water.

regards
9Ranchus

The only benefits is temperature and possible containing more oxygen when you change water.

on the latter, based on my testing I stay on the 11th flr and my supply comes from the tank above. O2 from the tap is acceptable not the best measured in the late morning at about 26 degrees. O2 depends on your temperature, so when you age water you have to reduce the temperature to get to the level you want. The easier way is to add 1ml of h2o2 to every 50L, that works. But once you change water that will go very fast. Goldrush review about oxypur rocks, and it last a lot longer.

For info, PUB in the past was using Cl only to treat our water. Since 10 years ago, PUB has been using Cl and ammonia for the treatment and this is why there is residual Cl and Chloramine (due to the binding of NH4 and Cl). No change.

Who ever said PUB don't use Chlorine anymore, he better come out with an explaination.

Chloramine = NH3 + CL2 ... the simplest form of chemistry. Chloramine formation is by adding ammonia compound ( in term of gas or solid salt ) into chlorinated water. And the reaction produce the product that we now talking about. I not going into detail of the chemical reaction formulation. Too complex for many.


Chlorine(aq) form can be easily dissipated thru heavy agitation in a containment area, but chloramine(aq) is very stable disinfectant. By right, Chloramine should still be able to dissipated, but the duration can last for months. Aging water in the good old days will not work as good as today. What I meant is that there are always some form of free chlorine in our water, so aging and agitating the water will still work on these minute trace of free chlorine.

Definitely not me lah. I go pub terkan C3H5OH better. I prefer to "communicate" with the nice sweet mini-skirt little girls ...

Anyone knows exactly when was chloramine introduced?Some said recently,some said few years ago, my guess is around 2001 or 2002, this is the first time someone said 10 years ago.

Any senior PUB officers around?

PUB director Matrix

ps i was told as such by a PUB officer but it was a short conversation cpiw you also?

No I am not from PUB but CPIB hahaha no lah joking.

But I do deal with them occasionally since I am in the construction industry.

I thought they will inform the public first before they will add something extra in our drinking water ? But i believe that this will not cause any effect on our fish keeping hobby. If not the whole Singapore fish keeping industries will be affected ma including all LFS.

The study of using alternative chlorine products started after WWII. Chlorine byproducts are more deadly to human. Trihalomethane for one is a sure killer. Can't recall but I know that there are extensive research and patents. WHO provided the guideline but it is up to individual countries to admistrate the implementation and study.

There are also some other chemicals that destroy terror threats. Maybe not here, PUB can answer to that ...