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RafflesGold Forums > Discussion Area > Green Water, Filtration and Tank Setup
stooeygee
Hi , I am wondering if someone could advise me please.

I have a tank with a capacity of 180 litres.
I run 2 internal filters which turnover the water at a total rate of 1200 litres per hour.


Basically I have been informed that you need 10 times turnover in relation to the tank size , so by this , my set up is short by 600 lph.

My tank houses 2 ranchu and a crown pearlscale.
I change around 50% of the water every 3-5days
Can I please have your comments please on whether or not my flow rate is sufficient for my fish.

Thanks in advance

Stuart.
The Matrix
QUOTE(stooeygee @ Wed, 02 Nov 2005 8:00 pm)
Hi , I am wondering if someone could advise me please.

I have a tank with a capacity of 180 litres.
I run 2 internal filters which turnover the water at a total rate of 1200 litres per hour.
Basically I have been informed that you need 10 times turnover in relation to the tank size , so by this , my set up is short by 600 lph.

My tank houses 2 ranchu and a crown pearlscale.
I change around 50% of the water every 3-5days
Can I please have your comments please on whether or not my flow rate is sufficient for my fish.

Thanks in advance

Stuart.
*




u keeping tropical fish or goldfish ?

10x ??!!??!!??? .... i dun think mine is 1x ...

1 air pump, 1 internal air-powered sponge filter .... as simple as that.
stooeygee
QUOTE
u keeping tropical fish or goldfish ?


3 Goldfish.

American website advising to go 10x dntknw.gif:

Probably cos they use the 10 gallon rule and water change 10% every 2 weeks .

I think my set up is just fine then good.gif
CP
10 times for marine tanks I guess.

It doesnt matter whether it is 10x, 5x, 1x or 0 times(as in sponge filters) as long as the filters function in converting all ammonias to nitrates.You cannot 'overfilter' so to speak,therefore it is always on the safe side to have a bigger turnover.

I am presently using a pump with 3 times turnaround per hour.Koi ponds do well with 1 time turnaround per hour.However, I would advise against getting a pump that give more than 4 times turnaround per hour for goldfish keeping for the reason that a too big turnaround will cause turbulence in the tank - goldfish prefers calm waters.
Bak2it
QUOTE(CP @ Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:52 am)
I am presently using a pump with 3 times turnaround per hour.Koi ponds do well with 1 time turnaround per hour.However, I would advise against getting a pump that give more than 4 times turnaround per hour for goldfish keeping for the reason that a too big turnaround will cause turbulence in the tank - goldfish prefers calm waters.
*



That's very interesting CP, What are the negative results to goldfish of having a higher turnover rate. I ask because I have four 1/2" return lines pumping just shy of 10X back into my tank and I was thinking that my tank needed more circulation.
goldrush
Dear Bak2it

Having more doesn't mean is better but do note the return may cause consistent turbulence in which your fish has to swim against it .Now this is akin to swimming against a whirpool 24 hours aday and in the long run you may have some developmental problem like having a streamline fish rather than a gobular one which is ain't desirable in goldfish unless you keep comet.Now if you still insist on having the same turn over then the return has to modify to cut down on whirpool effect.You can return with a spray bar having the holes directed against the glass surface to break its force of the return or else you may return the water conected via a hose into a drip tray.In the latter the water return in drips and aeration would be an additional asset.Tell us what you think as all feedbacks would be considered.

regards

goldrush
Bak2it
Thanks for your reply Goldrush, I had assumed that a stronger current would keep a fish healthier. Kind of like fish that live in rivers always appear healthier and stronger than fish that live in a lake.

Anyway... I use a setup like this on each of the back corners of my tank to return the water from the sump.
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When I see particles of waste floating in the water, they don't seem to be blown around by the currents in the tank, except when they are in the direct path of one of the return lines. They just float lazily around until they get sucked into the overflow box. My fish seem to be able to rest in place with no effort any place in the tank that they want to.

Will this amount of current still effect their shape?
Daryl
Higher turnover is normally recommended because stocking levels are usually very high and water changing is usually quite minimal, in my opinion.

In order to process all the excess ammonia from the water, it must be passed by the bio-media, along with sufficiant oxygen, to allow the bacteria to work. If the water is not passed by the beneficial bacteria often enough, they cannot process all the ammonia in the nitrogen cycle. The more fish - the more ammonia. Higher lph allows more water to come into contact with the nitrifying bacteria - processing to your zero ammonia, zero nitrite.
CP
Ha ha, I see another "East vs West" battle looming on the horizon.

Stooeygee,Daryl and Bak2it currently using (or intending to use) high turnover rate.

Matrix,Goldrush and myself opt for low turnover (or even none,in the case of sponge filters).

I still stick to my view that a turnover rate of 1 time per hour is already sufficient to convert all ammonia.As I have mentioned earlier, opting for low turnover is to prevent excessive current, which the goldfish dislikes.However,in the case of Bak2it's observation that there are areas of low turbulence in his tank where the fish can rest, I guess it is OK.Maybe he can use the plant movements as a guide.

Goldfish thrive in ponds, and their body shape,built,fins and tails are not designed for strong currents.They do not evolve from streams (neither do they evolve from ponds), but breeded and domesticated by mankind.
The Matrix
Well, it's not a battle lah. It is very difficult to "see" the benefit .. you can call it the old school vs the hi-tech. Sponge or motorized still do the same job, but one provide slow turnover, one extreme high.

Well, as long as the keeper feel that the fish is doing well, so be it. No right, no wrong.

CP, u already out of the common level, look back and u will understand.
Daryl
Absolutely no battle here.... lol.gif

Neither is right, neither is wrong. They are just different. They both work just fine .... it is simply your choice. I was explaining why higher rates of turnover are generally recommended in the west.

In high turnover tanks you are soooo correct to state that it is necessary to make sure there are sufficiant places without current for the fish to rest.

yes.gif
goldrush
Allow me to expound further why flow rate and filtration time can be at times contradictory especially for beginners and calculating it to achieve an ideal further compounds confusion. A higher flow rate does not tantamount to a better filtration rate.Generally speaking ,the longer the polluted water is held within the filtration system the better the chance of achieving complete nitrification process.The most time consuming process would be the breaking down of DOC into its inorganic components.If insufficient time is allowed to facilitate this breakdown then intermediate or incomplete nitrification products would be pump back to the main tank again defeating the main objective of having a filter system.
Now comes the confusion.The above makes sense however the flow rate is equally important as it measures how fast your water are being processed.The lower a flow rate means it will take a considerable time to filter off the entire water system.However one must not be drawn into calculating the volume of water involved but rather the number of fish kept and the amount of food fed which are far more significant.The latter two yield the resultant metabolic ammonia not the water.It is suffice to say here the higher the stocking level and the more one feeds,an increase in flow rate is essential for effective ammonia removal.So what you come across as a recommendation in the net or text is just a general guide rather than a rule as one has to factor stocking rate/feeding frequency (indirectly ammonia production)to determine an acceptable flow rate.

At the end of the day if you have some basic requirements of an effective filter with an acceptable flow rate and have a couple of healthy fish to show, then I believe you are not far off from achieving a conducive environment for your fishes to live and grow without having to struggle consistently to upkeep your water conditions.Ultimately that is what matters most .Not too much technicality or it will kill off any hobby I'm sure.



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stooeygee
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thanks goldrush


stuart
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