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gohks
----Post splitted from 'Trojan's SVR'-------


There is a long debate of harm or benefits of sand/pebbles bed and I think this subjectivity still stays. Having the pebbles bed infact is good if it is setup correctly and infact will minimize your chore of water change (practical for minimum water change). I have tried both and let me share with you my own experience:-
i) I used to have a bare tank (6ft) with just goldfishes powered by external overhead and canister filter (both mechanical & bological setup). No pebbles or rocks were in there as I believed it causes maintainence headache (usual believe).Greedy guy like me tend to overstock the fishes (don't like to disclose the no. as it against the practice here). I found to have great trouble maintaing the tank. The water condition is always cloudy and brownish (think insufficient biological bateria thriving) no matter how often I changed it (goldfishes are damn dirty animal!). Imagine I have to do at leat 50 - 100% water change weekly on a 6ft tank, that is really a task for a busy and amateur guy like me. sad.gif
ii) After much consultation and research, some guru recommend me to have undergraval filter covered with pebbles (pebbles much be right size, not to cause any hazard to the goldfish). As I am dead tired of maintaing and upkeeping the tank, I decided to give it a try. I added in the under-graval filter powered by a strong power-head, in addition to the external filter I have. To my very surprise, the water stays crystal cleared after stablization, even with the same amount of fishes and no matter how much I fed them (with any kind of food that may cloud the water!!). I think the beneficial baterial has thrived well on the pebbles bed, much oxygenated by the water-flow through the undergraval filter and the bed. However, I still have one headache, the pebbles/sands are very difficult to maintain, debrics stuck and I have to vacuum the bed frequently.
iii) Fed-up of this tedious chore, I did more research and found the "Reversed flow" methodology (must be used with the external filter) (instead of sucking the water from the undergraval filter, it pumping water into it, forcing the debrics out to be filter by external filters) and this really works for me!! However, debrics still can be pumped into the bottom graval plate and could choke the system.
iv) Lately, I further improved by changing to two-way powerhead (flows can be reversed) to pump and suck routinely, to counter the aboves debrics accumumation problem. I also added in a UV light ozonizer to get rid of the algae problem (my water very purified and cleared after this addition).

Currently, I change water rarely, just need to top-up the water lost and clean the algae on the glass and are very happy with my current setup (with an overly stocked tank!!). My water conditions are maintained at:-
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0 (I added some hardy plants and have algae/mosses on the rocks to elimiate that).
PH: 8.5
Salinity: 0.18%
Temp: 29 - 30C

I strongly believe in biological/mechanical filtration (no chemical means). Very importantly, the beneficial baterial must thrive well. The UV light ozonizer (previoulsy used mainly for outdoor ponds) is also needed. All these lead to a "Crysal Cleared" tank + Minimum maintainance!!

I wrote this not to stir-up a debate, but just to share on some of my success story. This methodology is my personal preference and proven to work for me. I promote practicality here for amateur and busy hobbiest who have other committment. Cannot imagine having to do 50 - 100% water change weekly for a > 4ft tank, or having a green water in a flat, just to upkeep the fish (cannot sustain and sooner or later you will feel tire of this hobby and think of giving up, believed some of the brothers here are having the same kind of feeling). ;)
koolbeep
Hi, this was a nice thread...

Can you describe more on "two-way powerhead"? unsure.gif I cant imagine how it looks like biggrin.gif
gohks
QUOTE(koolbeep @ Wed, 07 Dec 2005 4:41 pm)
Hi, this was a nice thread...

Can you describe more on "two-way powerhead"?  unsure.gif  I cant imagine how it looks like  biggrin.gif
*



Koolbeep,
I could not show you the packaging as I already discarded. I got it from a large LFS in Yishun for less then $50/-. It looks not very different from normal powerhead but with an additional turning nob to control the direction of flow.
goldrush
Dear gohks

An initial setup of a sub gravel filtration system will give beautiful crystal clear water with negative ammonia,nitrite and contained nitrate readings.Now what we are concerned are not the aerobic beneficial bacteria but the emergence of anaerobics in time to come.These anaerobic pockets may occur anywhere within the sand sediments or in substrate with thick mulms.Periodic water changes can only dilute toxins produced.Of chief concern would be hydrogen sulphide.In areas of reduced oxygen facultative bacteria respire by using sulphur instead of using oxygen liberating the infamous hydrogen sulphide(german gas or pui) in return which are very toxic to your fishes.Now all these processes occur in dynamism over time and are cumulative in effect as such we do not advocate substrate or sub gravel filtration especially in goldfish culture as they are prolific feeder, constant shitter and our tendency to overfeed and overstock.Such sins are eminent in our human malpractice.Apart from causing toxic releases these anaerobic bacteria are culprits of causing a host of all commonly encountered bacterial ailments like reddening,ulceration ,fin ,tail and mouth rot and infact most of internal bacterial infection.
So be vigilant of this danger if any still insist and persist in subgravel filtration practice.


regards

goldrush
gohks
QUOTE(goldrush @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 3:17 pm)
Dear gohks

An initial setup of a sub gravel filtration system will give beautiful crystal clear water with negative ammonia,nitrite and contained nitrate readings.Now what we are concerned are not the aerobic beneficial bacteria but the emergence of anaerobics in time to come.These anaerobic pockets may occur anywhere within the sand sediments or in  substrate with thick mulms.Periodic water changes can only dilute toxins produced.Of chief concern would be hydrogen sulphide.In areas of reduced oxygen facultative bacteria respire by using sulphur instead of using oxygen liberating the infamous hydrogen sulphide(german gas or pui) in return which are very toxic to your fishes.Now all these processes occur in dynamism over time and are cumulative in effect as such we do not advocate substrate or sub gravel filtration especially in goldfish culture as they are prolific feeder, constant shitter and our tendency to overfeed and overstock.Such sins are eminent in our human malpractice.Apart from causing toxic releases these anaerobic bacteria are culprits of causing a host of all commonly encountered  bacterial ailments like reddening,ulceration ,fin ,tail and mouth rot and infact most of internal bacterial infection.
So be vigilant of this danger if any still insist and persist in subgravel filtration practice.
regards

goldrush
*


Dear Goldrush,
Thks for your valuable advise. Will keep vigilant of the ailments you mentioned (so far so good, fatality has been quite low (keeping my fingers X) for the past 3 yrs when I changed my tank to current system. Do get the external parasit once a while but was able to heal with medication. Few of my fatality are internal parasite cases like the incurable dropsy and swim bladder decease (I will euthanase them as they are terminal). FYI one thing I really like about my current system is I can afford to feed my goldfish 5 - 6 times a day (with huge amount of all kind of variety of food and their appetite are always good!) without having to worry about fouling and clouding the water which I used to get with a bare tank. With this, my goldfish get beefed up and more resistance to deceases and perhaps balance up the negative effect of my setup. Also mentioned, I am a guy who cannot resist temptation of buying and tend to over-crowd with regrets (I have an overstocked tank of ~ 50 goldfish (lost count!!) sad.gif of various types and sizes (6 - 20cm).

I would like to give my goldfish tip-top living condition by having to do regular 100% water change (still not sure that is really good as it keeps disturbing the balance condition of the tank with your fishes need to adapt), or renting a pond with green water (I am a strong believer as my parents/grandparents used to keep goldfish that way) but for a damn busy and aging guy like me just have to compromise my fish living conditions with the minimum maintainence for practicality. I really admire some bros here on their strong committment and can even go to the extend of breeding their own line good.gif )

You will be shocked if I tell you my maintenance schedule:-
1) Bi-Weekly maintenance:- topping up the water losses, cleaning the glasses.
2) Quarterly check:- Water parameters.
3) Half yearly maintenace:- cleaning the external filter medium.
4) Yearly maintenance:- vacuuming the sand bed (hate to do that!).

In short, I like keeping and grooming goldfish, but just hate doing the maintenance job. hmm.gif
The Matrix
Gohks, the topic comes with a question Yes or No ? quite interestingly, you have put up something that is opposing to many in this forum - bare tank setup. In fact, i also really wanted to have a good nice setup with lots of solid fish swimming inside.

Going thru your postings, I find you have a sound understanding of your setup and what you have planned to do. Good for you indeed !

Keep it up and hey, let us admire 50 fishes in a tank !!!!
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 4:34 pm)
Gohks, the topic comes with a question Yes or No ? quite interestingly, you have put up something that is opposing to many in this forum - bare tank setup. In fact, i also really wanted to have a good nice setup with lots of solid fish swimming inside.

Going thru your postings, I find you have a sound understanding of your setup and what you have planned to do. Good for you indeed !

Keep it up and hey, let us admire 50 fishes in a tank !!!!
*


Matrix,
Would like to apologize if I opposed the usual practice and preaching here. blush.gif My whole intention is to share and X-learn (frankly I also learn alot after discovery of RG lately, should have realized there is this local goldfish informational/forum sites much earlier sad.gif I always serve other sites (mostly western) but found not very suitable).
I would like to declare I arrive at the current system through hardways of learning, consultation and referring. I am a pure amateur hobbyist who have a 6ft tank (stocked up with fishes, with sand bed, rocks, drift wood, plantation, conceallation cabinate, spent 5K setting up shiok.gif and would share with bros with digcam pictures soon) in the living room (my tank formed part of partition wall). Frankly I could not do much frequent water changes as my boss would be disturbed. hmm.gif . I also don't breed, select or groom fishes for competition.
In short, this really boils down to personal choice and preference. My way of doing may not be the best but I think it is practical which I preach. Just want to share with bros here who fall under the same category and share my sentiment. biggrin.gif
CP
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 4:34 pm)
Gohks, the topic comes with a question Yes or No ?
*


I would like to clarify that I am the one who gave this topic title as i had splitted this post from another thread.
CyberET
wow! Quick! a photo of your tank! I've always dream of a tank filled with lots of GFs
gohks
QUOTE(CyberET @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 9:30 pm)
wow! Quick! a photo of your tank! I've always dream of a tank filled with lots of GFs
*


okay! okay! let me borrow my wife's digcam (back on Sunday from tour) to snap some pictures to post here. Frankly, 1st time doing this as not so tech savvy blush.gif
goldrush
QUOTE(CyberET @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 9:30 pm)
wow! Quick! a photo of your tank! I've always dream of a tank filled with lots of GFs
*




LFS tanks full of goldfish leh but turn over also very high rolleyes.gif
goldrush
Let me recap what you have shared with us
50 fish in a six foot undergravel filtered tank with minimal maintenance,overfeeding and overstocked beg2.gif beg2.gif beg2.gif ………….Only one song comes to my mind

that is Ronan Keating:When you say nothing at all


It's amazing
Your tank can speak
Right to my heart
Without saying a word,
It can light us the dark
Try as I may
I could never explain
What I hear when
It don't say a thing………..(logical)




And cp

you say it best when you say nothing at all
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 5:18 pm)
Matrix,
Would like to apologize if I opposed the usual practice and preaching here.  blush.gif My whole intention is to share and X-learn (frankly I also learn alot after discovery of RG lately, should have realized there is this local goldfish informational/forum sites much earlier  sad.gif I always serve other sites (mostly western) but found not very suitable).
I would like to declare I arrive at the current system through hardways of learning, consultation and referring.  I am a pure amateur hobbyist who have a 6ft tank (stocked up with fishes, with sand bed, rocks, drift wood, plantation, conceallation cabinate, spent 5K setting up  shiok.gif and would share with bros with digcam pictures soon) in the living room (my tank formed part of partition wall).  Frankly I could not do much frequent water changes as my boss would be disturbed. hmm.gif .  I also don't breed, select or groom fishes for competition.
In short, this really boils down to personal choice and preference.  My way of doing may not be the best but I think it is practical which I preach.  Just want to share with bros here who fall under the same category and share my sentiment.  biggrin.gif
*



dun worry about being an opposition. I am one myself. biggrin.gif

Anyway, I lagi want to see the tank now since it's a partition tank. That's what I have also. A tank that separate the dinning and living hall. It's like a living art piece that changs every second.

Quick quick ... PICTURE !
gohks
QUOTE(goldrush @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 12:35 am)
Let me recap what you have shared with us
50 fish in a six foot undergravel filtered tank with minimal maintenance,overfeeding and overstocked  beg2.gif  beg2.gif  beg2.gif ………….Only one song comes to my mind

that is Ronan Keating:When you say nothing at all
It's amazing
Your tank can speak
Right to my heart
Without saying a word,
It can light us the dark
Try as I may
I could never explain
What I hear when
It don't say a thing………..(logical)
And cp

you say it best when you say nothing at all
*


Goldrush,
I would like to declare I commit a greatest sin of overcrowding. Having ~ 50 of them in a tank (I actually make an effort to count yesterday and I think is approximately closed to that shiok.gif - kind of difficult task to accomplish due to the movements of fishes. FYI, I also have never transfer the fishes to any of the tubs during maintenance and have a chance of counting them).
This is due to my greed, temptation and patient as I always like to roam around the LFS in S'pore and buy whatever I like if it is affordable (my budget is always < $50/- per fishes, you can tell the quality I would get blush.gif ). I am fully aware of the drawback of doing this as it will result in stress and stunted growth, and when there is an outbreak (still keeping vigilent and finger X peace.gif), I would be in trouble. BTW, can you enlighten on how to detect hydrogen sulphide as mentioned in your previous thread.
I wish to emphasize that I wrote the threads to share on my tank setup and not the no. of fishes I have. I am a bit concern of seeing some threads where people stinge on feeding because of water clouding and maintenance issue. I am a believer of pumping up the fishes to be resistance to all kind of deceases (as you would never know what exist in the microscopic world, no matter how much you clean or upkeep your tank rusure.gif ). Prevention and having a healthy fish is key and curing is really bandaid and firefighting (how many successful cases we have seen in fixing an internal parasit problem?? Even if it is fixed, fish already weaken and would never live long). Sorry for being long winded here but I just write what I feel.
Lastly, my greatest dream and preference is to have 4 - 6 > 20cm showgrade Ranchu/Ryukin swimming majestcally in my 6 ft tank!! rolleyes.gif
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:00 am)
dun worry about being an opposition. I am one myself.  biggrin.gif

Anyway, I lagi want to see the tank now since it's a partition tank. That's what I have also. A tank that separate the dinning and living hall. It's like a living art piece that changs every second.

Quick quick ... PICTURE !
*


hi.gif , Matrix,
We are having the same thing good.gif laugh.gif . Since no picture yet, let me describe mine a bit here (for imagination tongue.gif ). Half of my tank (3 ft) is jugged out as a partition between dinning and living (that allow 2 ways see through) and the other half is against a wall (I have blacked cereform decorative background). The tank is 6 ft (L) x 2.5 ft (H) x 2 ft (W) flushed with oak colour cabinet from ground to ceiling. This is meant for decorative purpose as to my boss's wish, after I insisted on having a hugh tank in living (due to my craziness of goldfish) - can't have a crude looking filled with dirtied/green water tank in the living right biggrin.gif . Hope this gives some idea how it looks like.
BTW, since I have resorted and compromised to minimum mainteance, how you do your upkeep, especially having one in a living?
desireless
Hi Goh,

I wonder where did you read from, on restraining feeding to keep water in ideal conditions? This is something that should never be done.

I see that you have a good understanding to the bio mechanism of your aquarium, but why do against what you know is right? I am glad you know the possible nasty things that can occur with the setup that you have narrate. It is a time bomb that is awaiting to go off anytime.
gohks
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 1:49 pm)
Hi Goh,

I wonder where did you read from, on restraining feeding to keep water in ideal conditions? This is something that should never be done.

I see that you have a good understanding to the bio mechanism of your aquarium, but why do against what you know is right? I am glad you know the possible nasty things that can occur with the setup that you have narrate. It is a time bomb that is awaiting to go off anytime.
*


Desireless,
There is this thread which wrote "water quality is more important then food":-
Ga 106 - Dragon Eye
By: demdamdemekins
which I tend to differ. Is the definition of "Good water quality", 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate and a stable > 7 PH (which I always get). However, there are those microscopic organism coming through the tape (nowadays you don't know what you will get from domestic supply) you would never know. Unless we really steralize the water then can be termed "Good quality water".

Therefore, I would say, pump-up the fish, don't be shy, throw in all the food varieties, and do more water change if need be.
desireless
"Water quality is more important then food" does not mean that you should feed lesser so that your water stays good. How did you derive to that conclusion? laugh.gif

What that sentence means is that one should maintain good water quality on top of others things like food and supplement. You can be feeding top quality or "the most perfect pellet" but if your water quality is no good, your fish will never turn out well.

Feeding lesser to maintain good water quality is never our preach here.

QUOTE(gohks @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 5:08 pm)
Is the definition of "Good water quality", 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate and a stable > 7 PH (which I always get).  However, there are those microscopic organism coming through the tape (nowadays you don't know what you will get from domestic supply) you would never know.  Unless we really steralize the water then can be termed "Good quality water".
*


Frankly speaking, I seriously doubt you can achieve good water quality with 50 fishes in a 6 footer. Even with a working filtration, nitrate level will be very high by the second and third day. Borrow another set of tester to confirm if you are getting 0 readings for all perimeters by the 3rd day or so.
CP
QUOTE(goldrush @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 12:35 am)
And cp

you say it best when you say nothing at all
*


Yes you are right, I am still very surprised at what I am reading.


QUOTE(gohks @ Thu, 08 Dec 2005 4:14 pm)
You will be shocked if I tell you my maintenance schedule:-
1) Bi-Weekly maintenance:- topping up the water losses, cleaning the glasses.
2) Quarterly check:- Water parameters.
*


Yes I am shocked by this maintenance schedule.Especially on the quarterly check on water parameters.Once every 3 months?

What method did you adopt to buffer the water, your pH is at a high range of 8.5?.Even using coral chips or oyster shells will keep the pH from 7.5 to 8 at most.
And, you had mentioned using plants to reduce nitrates to zero,with no denitrator in place........how much plants do you need? Pics please............ beg2.gif
gohks
QUOTE(CP @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 9:32 pm)
Yes you are right, I am still very surprised at what I am reading.
Yes I am shocked by this maintenance schedule.Especially on the quarterly check on water parameters.Once every 3 months?

What method did you adopt to buffer the water,  your pH is at a high range of 8.5?.Even using coral chips or oyster shells will keep the pH from 7.5 to 8 at most.
And, you had mentioned using plants to reduce nitrates to zero,with no denitrator in place........how much plants do you need? Pics please............ beg2.gif
*


CP,
Yes, I am as surprise as you on the results of my tank setup and that's why I decided to share here. I read several threads on bros are still struggling on nitrate and cloudy water phenomeum and that's why I decided to make a plunge.

To be frank, I was checking my water parameter weekly and found no change in them, everything "Zero" good.gif and that's why I cut down to quarterly (actually as and when I feel like doing now rusure.gif ). FYI, I am using the Red Sea NO3 test kit and I don't really doubt this calibration as I also have a 2ft tank (which is not so well setup) which constantly gives me 20 - 30 ppm reading.

I use crushed coral chips/with sendiment mixed on my sea bed (about 4 - 5 inch deep) and perhaps this do the buffering (infact previously I was doing crazy thing like adding PH down solution to bring to 6.8 - 7.8 range which I was told is best for goldfish). I also noticed thick layer of algae growth on the side of the 4 - 5 inches deep strata and perhaps this with the addition of the algae on the rocks and plants added help to keep NO3 in check.

As of now, what I am still uncertain are the micro-organism, KH, DO, Hydrogen Sulphide (as proclaim by Goldrush) and other chemical elements that are present in my tank that may cause harm to the fishes. sad.gif
The Matrix
guys, what we trying to achieve using a bare tank is basic, very basic - to minimize risk involve in a build up tank. But what Gohks has done is something that opposite the general guideline of what RG trying to promote. But in fact, the result on the water parameters is something we have to question ... not on him, but on the knowledge that have yet to explore.

Goh has already mentioned, he is not aiming at grooming competition fish, so the objectives are crystal clear. Remember that I always said, there is no wrong or right in fish keeping, important is what the hobbyist wants.

Go thru all the postings again ... one should notice there is a big different in the usual "gravel" setup compare to this. And that is where one will find the interesting knowledge ...

So let's not condemn such setup, but to really go in-depth and study it.

wait until neck long long liao ... PICTURES !
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:48 pm)
guys, what we trying to achieve using a bare tank is basic, very basic - to minimize risk involve in a build up tank. But what Gohks has done is something that opposite the general guideline of what RG trying to promote. But in fact, the result on the water parameters is something we have to question ... not on him, but on the knowledge that have yet to explore.

Goh has already mentioned, he is not aiming at grooming competition fish, so the objectives are crystal clear. Remember that I always said, there is no wrong or right in fish keeping, important is what the hobbyist wants.

Go thru all the postings again ... one should notice there is a big different in the usual "gravel" setup compare to this. And that is where one will find the interesting knowledge ...

So let's not condemn such setup, but to really go in-depth and study it.

wait until neck long long liao ... PICTURES !
*


Matrix,
Thks and appreciate your understanding and your open-mindedness approach to this topic. My whole intention here is to learn and share my past experience, and there is no hidden agenda. smile.gif

As previously mentioned, my approach is purely amateur, for busy hobbyist who intend to setup their tank as decorative/feng-sui, goldfish appreciaton with the minimum maintenance work have to put in.

As for the pictures, be patient, promise next week when my wife returns. May need some help here on downloading. blush.gif
gohks
As promised, my ~ 50 goldfish decor tank nananana.gif
\"IPB

Sorry, picture not so well take blush.gif
gohks
More pictures and start counting the goldfish biggrin.gif :-

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

Feeding time:-

IPB Image

Reflection may be too strong, fish eyes all turned white. How to take a better pictures?? blush.gif
CyberET
how thick is your sand bed? 2inch?

like a fish shop tank biggrin.gif

i think u need to do some extreme aeration ;)
The Matrix
wah seh ... if i got a tank and a cozy house like this ...
fishes are extremely thin. really under feed a lot. yup, bring up your aeration, not enough leh. better not hope for a power failure siah.
goldrush
Wow impressive setup with equally impressive population of goldfish.You name it you have it nomenclature of goldfishes.All chapalang,chiam po,rojak,coctail concortion of every type and hybrid.Yes it does remind most of our LFS display tank minus the furniture and wooden carboard setting and price tags biggrin.gif
Some seem to struggle in motion so watch them esp the calico orandas.Fish also appear underfed but perhaps that's your way to maintain water condition.Just enough for their survival and short of a need for their revival rusure.gif

Thxs for sharing

IPB Image
d_golem
wah lau gohks shiok.gif nice tank!
I'd like to see some close up pics of some of the ranchus laugh.gif some pretty decent ones in there

wah cannot imagine how much the whole setup will cost in australia rolleyes.gif pocket empty all of a sudden laugh.gif
gohks
QUOTE(CyberET @ Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:01 am)
how thick is your sand bed? 2inch?

like a fish shop tank biggrin.gif

i think u need to do some extreme aeration ;)
*


As mentioned, sand bed is ~ 3 - 4 inches.

Agreed, areation is kind of limited in a crowded tank, my perpetual headache. sad.gif
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:22 am)
better not hope for a power failure siah.
*


already have this in mind and caused me uneasiness and sleepness night, got an AC/DC pump to tahan for 8 - 9 hrs. But cannot go overseas leh! yes.gif
gohks
QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:25 pm)
Wow impressive setup with equally impressive population of goldfish.You name it you have it nomenclature of goldfishes.All chapalang,chiam po,rojak,coctail concortion of every type and hybrid.Yes it does remind most of our LFS display tank minus the furniture and wooden carboard setting and price tags  biggrin.gif
Some seem to struggle in motion so watch them esp the calico orandas.Fish also appear underfed but perhaps that's your way to maintain water condition.Just enough for their survival and short of a need for their revival rusure.gif

Thxs for sharing
*


Hi, doc,
WOW! spot-on beg2.gif , few goldfish are actually struggling with balancing problem, perhaps the 2.5 ft height is not very ideal (some people actually advise me to go with a shallower tank, but I bo-chap!).

With regards to fish appear under-fed, I fed them 3 times on weekdays (as I am working) and 5 - 6 time on weekend, with large quantity of food (I am not worry about the water conditions as previously mentioned). Maybe they are still fighting for food and survival.

My next plan is to trim the no. of fishes, have some theme and maybe some feng sui sense. Hopefully don't make my tank too bare biggrin.gif
gohks
QUOTE(d_golem @ Tue, 20 Dec 2005 1:29 pm)
wah lau gohks shiok.gif nice tank!
I'd like to see some close up pics of some of the ranchus laugh.gif some pretty decent ones in there

wah cannot imagine how much the whole setup will cost in australia  rolleyes.gif  pocket empty all of a sudden laugh.gif
*


the ranchus I got it cheap and not enough std to show here blush.gif

also, still learning on how to take a good picture of the goldfish. how to prevent the light reflection from the eyes, photography experts can advise. Some bros here can really take very good pic of goldfish.
CP
This is one of the aesthetically pleasing tank that I have seen. good.gif
Thanks for the pics.
GoldfisHub
You really inspire me to explore setting up a goldfish tank. Have been holding back because thinking that tank can only hold a few fishes hence not worth setting. Now must reconsider.
Just wondering if I setup a sump tank and place all the sand/coral chip in the sump tank instead of in the main tank, let the water run thru mechanical filter before going thru' sand and then return to main tank, will this work as well? Something like some of the Marine setup. Any comment on this?
gohks
QUOTE(GoldfisHub @ Wed, 21 Dec 2005 4:13 pm)
You really inspire me to explore setting up a goldfish tank. Have been holding back because thinking that tank can only hold a few fishes hence not worth setting. Now must reconsider.
Just wondering if I setup a sump tank and place all the sand/coral chip in the sump tank instead of in the main tank, let the water run thru mechanical filter before going thru' sand and then return to main tank, will this work as well? Something like some of the Marine setup. Any comment on this?
*


GoldfishHub,
The gist is "PLENTY of BB GROWTH".

There is local tank company (C**** R**f) that they able to help on setting up tank with minimum or NO water change beg2.gif . The trick they have is having an overflow system into a huge sump tank (hidden in the cabinet) with plenty of coral chips for BB to multiply and thrive. Refill is done on the sump tank without even disturbing the main tank. I have seen their setup and is pretty cool.

Your idea should work if you are able to provide that BB bloom!! ;)
GoldfisHub
QUOTE(gohks @ Wed, 21 Dec 2005 5:51 pm)
GoldfishHub,
The gist is "PLENTY of BB GROWTH".

There is local tank company (C**** R**f) that they able to help on setting up tank with minimum or NO water change  beg2.gif .  The trick they have is having an overflow system into a huge sump tank (hidden in the cabinet) with plenty of coral chips for BB to multiply and thrive.  Refill is done on the sump tank without even disturbing the main tank.  I have seen their setup and is pretty cool.

Your idea should work if you are able to provide that BB bloom!! ;)
*


peace.gif On this will be project 2006... look out for it!!!
gohks
QUOTE(GoldfisHub @ Wed, 21 Dec 2005 9:09 pm)
peace.gif On this will be project 2006... look out for it!!!
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Remember to take care of the NO3 too.

Heard some strain of BB can even convert the NO3 to harmless N2, not sure it's true. Maybe some experts can advise.
gohks
Updates on my "aesthetic" tank hi.gif :-
After couple of months of "pumping" & "spiking" biggrin.gif the fishes indeed has grown, put on some weights and improve on the coloration. Noticed the difference b4 & after unsure.gif
IPB ImageIPB ImageIPB Image
IPB ImageIPB ImageIPB Image
IPB ImageIPB ImageIPB Image
But my photo taking skill still as lousy as b4 sad.gif
gohks
More pictures and start counting the goldfish biggrin.gif :-

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
But my photo taking skill still as lousy as b4 sad.gif
CyberET
wah, LFS biggrin.gif
samwei_77
Juat wanna ask a question that has been bothering me for as long as I have kept goldfishes. Which is better? An empty tank or a tank that uses gravel? Personally, I find it difficult to keep the water crystal clear if I use an empty tank. It's easier to keep the water clear with gravel. But then, I heard that gravel can cause fish diseases.

Can someone enlighten me?
Which is better for the goldfish?
If an empty tank is better, how do I keep the water crystal clear?
gohks
Sounds like you have experience with both. What do you think laugh.gif
samwei_77
I think there is a chance that the water quality may deteriorate and go undetected if gravel is used. Maybe that's why some of my fishes develop red streaks rather often.

A bare tank will no doubt be more difficult to keep the water crystal clear. So, it will affect the pleasure of watching the fishes. However, I think having two Eheim Ecco filters may be able to solve the problem. I have just one Eheim Ecco running now. Going to buy another one soon. Hopefully, by having 2 filters, it'll keep the water crystal clear.
samwei_77
Personally, I think the Eheim Ecco is really good. I got if for $145 bucks but I think it's worh every penny.

Any bros out there who have good filtration methods, kindly share here. Thanks.
Kinder
QUOTE(samwei_77 @ Thu, 08 Jun 2006 5:43 pm)
Personally, I think the Eheim Ecco is really good. I got if for $145 bucks but I think it's worh every penny.

Any bros out there who have good filtration methods, kindly share here. Thanks.
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wow, Eheim ecco only SGD $145...i paid the AUD$ 145 for eheim classic. Funny how we get ripped off here. Anyway why do you preffer eheim eco or classic?given that its more costly n performs far less that an eheim classic.

I have got one eheim classic attached to an outdoor 150tub....works pretty good but the algea grows fast (direct sun)so i clean the tub every 2weeks other wise the water turns cloudy.
gohks
QUOTE(samwei_77 @ Thu, 08 Jun 2006 3:43 pm)
Personally, I think the Eheim Ecco is really good. I got if for $145 bucks but I think it's worh every penny.

Any bros out there who have good filtration methods, kindly share here. Thanks.
*


goldfish is a big producer of biological waste and the more you have the worst it gets. Situation will even be aggravated if you feed more. Therefore, you need lots of bio-material to counter this. Cloudy water is a signal that your bio filtration is insufficient. No matter how much mech filtration and water change you do, it will get cloudy within a few days.
The only way to counter this problem is to have a very good filtration system (besides doing frequent water change, if you can afford). You need a big storage space for the bio-material (ie. sump tank, big canister > 20L, multi-layers wet-dry OHF types + a strong power head (> 2000 l/h)).
As mentioned earlier, when you are into this hobby, don't be shy about filtration, go for overkill. If no budget constraint, go for a good and powerful one and get the problem solve once and for all, rather then keep on adding filter to your tank.
With this, you might be able to get crystal clear water without having to go into UGF. smile.gif
samwei_77
QUOTE(Kinder @ Thu, 08 Jun 2006 4:18 pm)
wow, Eheim ecco only SGD $145...i paid the AUD$ 145 for eheim classic. Funny how we get ripped off here. Anyway why do you preffer eheim eco or classic?given that its more costly n performs far less that an eheim classic.

I have got one eheim classic attached to an outdoor 150tub....works pretty good but the algea grows fast (direct sun)so i clean the tub every 2weeks other wise the water turns cloudy.
*



I think the mechanical and biological filtration works very well for Eheim Ecco.
It's very user-friendly too.
samwei_77
QUOTE(gohks @ Thu, 08 Jun 2006 4:37 pm)
goldfish is a big producer of biological waste and the more you have the worst it gets.  Situation will even be aggravated if you feed more.  Therefore, you need lots of bio-material to counter this.  Cloudy water is a signal that your bio filtration is insufficient.  No matter how much mech filtration and water change you do, it will get cloudy within a few days.
The only way to counter this problem is to have a very good filtration system (besides doing frequent water change, if you can afford).  You need a big storage space for the bio-material (ie. sump tank, big canister > 20L, multi-layers wet-dry OHF types + a strong power head (> 2000 l/h)).
As mentioned earlier, when you are into this hobby, don't be shy about filtration, go for overkill.  If no budget constraint, go for a good and powerful one and get the problem solve once and for all, rather then keep on adding filter to your tank.
With this, you might be able to get crystal clear water without having to go into UGF. smile.gif
*



True. I totally agree with you. By having a big area to contain the biological wastes, it'll give time for the bacteria to braek it down to harmless chemicals.

When you mentioned 'powerful one', what is it you are referring to?
gohks
QUOTE(samwei_77 @ Thu, 08 Jun 2006 11:26 pm)

When you mentioned 'powerful one', what is it you are referring to?
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I mean the whole filter system yes.gif BTW, what do you have in your Ecco Eheim filter. Can let me know the material sequence inside smile.gif
samwei_77
From bottom up:

1st layer (bottom layer): coarse filter pad
2nd layer: Substrate
3rd layer: Substrate
4th layer: Fine filter pad
5th layer (top layer): carbon filter pad
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