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RafflesGold Forums > Discussion Area > Green Water, Filtration and Tank Setup
ameister
Let me post a theoretical question...

I understand the need to do regular water changes to remove some nitrates and growth inhibitors. What if we hook up a reverse osmosis system to the aquarium and cycling 20-30% of water through the reverse osmosis system on a weekly or twice a week. Any topping up could also go through the RO system.

If I am not mistaken, RO forces molecules via membrane as it purify the water. It can remove most bacteria, heavy metals and even sodium in some setups. A nitrate molecule is bigger than a sodium molecule, so nitrates will be removed. We can use plants to remove nitrates anyways. As for the growth inhibitor, it should be a large organic molecule and so easily removed by the RO system.

I have recently moved to a flat/apartment and if I were to setup an aquarium big enough for my liking, I dread the water change process that I will be getting myself into.

To all you Goldfish Gurus out there, I beg2.gif your advice, comments and suggestions.

peace.gif
CyberET
you may in the process filter out both the good stuffs, and the bad stuffs ;)
goldrush
Reverse osmosis (RO) is a water purification process in which water is forced through a semi-permeable membrane that removes 90-99% of tap water impurities. The result is water free of minerals and other contaminants and that include all the essential minerals for the well being of your fishes as well.However bacteria are just too small to be filtered out so it is not an effective infective control.
Water change is still the best ,the most economical option and perhaps a part and parcel of our goldfish keeping biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
The Matrix
to add on to what doc mentioned, RO water is close to pure water. which means that the water is low ionic, lack the buffering capacity and will cause your pH to plunge within a short period once expose to normal atmospheric air.

usually for use of a RO unit, you will hv to throw in some additives like buffering agent, calcifier and the important trace elements. anyway, you might like to experience using it and see what are the result you will be getting before investing more money.
Bak2it
QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:24 am)
Reverse osmosis (RO) is a water purification process in which water is forced through a semi-permeable membrane that removes 90-99% of tap water impurities. The result is water free of minerals and other contaminants and that include all the essential minerals for the well being of your fishes as well.However bacteria are just too small to be filtered out so it is not an effecive infective control.
Water change  is still the best ,the  most economical option and perhaps a part and parel  our goldfish keeping biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
*



I agree with the majority of Goldrush's post, especially about water changes being the best and most economical options. But there is no way a bacteria or a virus can make it through the membrane of a RO unit. The average size of the pores in a reverse osmosis membrane are only 0.0005 microns in size. Bacteria are from 0.2 - 1.0 and viruses are 0.02 - 0.4 micron in size.

The biggest draw back to trying to clean aquarium water with an RO unit is the amount of rejected water. A typical RO unit will process between 3 to 10 gallons of tank water to produce a single gallon of RO water.

If you'd like to check out some filter systems that ACTUALLY will work for virtually eliminating water changes, check out the filter systems made by Sea Visions.

http://www.seavisions.com/products.htm
chanB
I had tried using a 10" 1.0um sediment filter for a 4ft tank. the filter choked in less the 24 hrs.
gohks
Seems water change is a must and is a tedious chores most of us hate and try to avoid mad.gif , since you are moving to new home, why don't ask your contractor to install auto top-up and draining system to your tank. I have seen some LFS with this draining and tapping system that make water change a piece of cake! yes.gif
ameister
QUOTE(gohks @ Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:02 am)
Seems water change is a must and is a tedious chores most of us hate and try to avoid mad.gif , since you are moving to new home, why don't ask your contractor to install auto top-up and draining system to your tank.  I have seen some LFS with this draining and tapping system that make water change a piece of cake! yes.gif
*



Can't do, the new place is already done and already moved in unsure.gif. If I were to get the contractors in and do as you suggest, my lady boss at home will surely do evil things to me... biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

But also thanks to all the others for the comments and replies.

I did some further research and it seems an RO system takes in 1 inlet stream and discharges 2 outlet streams. The first would be your RO pure water and the second with the remain gunk in it.

So I did some thinking..... Can a RO system extend the length of time in between water changes.

The following is a schematic of what I am planning.

\"IPB


The RO membrane Unit would be something like this:

http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/bbtfc.html maybe without the prefilter as the mechanical filter after the bio filter should do this function. Thanks to chanB for the info 1micron filter experience. What I will do post the bio filter is to install a multi stage mechanical filter. Maybe 100 microns, 80 microns and so on.. I think this should save the RO membrane fitler...

Thanks to all and penny for your thoughts.
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:02 pm)
Seems water change is a must and is a tedious chores most of us hate and try to avoid mad.gif , since you are moving to new home, why don't ask your contractor to install auto top-up and draining system to your tank.  I have seen some LFS with this draining and tapping system that make water change a piece of cake! yes.gif
*


how much water u changing a week ? i never find it tedious, rather i find it fun and enjoy doing so.
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:13 pm)
how much water u changing a week ? i never find it tedious, rather i find it fun and enjoy doing so.
*


u know from my previous threads I seldom do water change nananana.gif what irk me is the weekly scrubbing of algea from the glasses to make my tank looks good. sad.gif since sucker fish is not a choice, any good recommendation on minimum cleaning of glass is welcome. smile.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:37 am)
u know from my previous threads I seldom do water change  nananana.gif what irk me is the weekly scrubbing of algea from the glasses to make my tank looks good. sad.gif since sucker fish is not a choice, any good recommendation on minimum cleaning of glass is welcome. smile.gif
*


then u should find out what make algae grow in your tank instead.
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:13 pm)
how much water u changing a week ? i never find it tedious, rather i find it fun and enjoy doing so.
*



I fully agree, Mr Matrix! yes.gif
I'm changing slightly less than a Tonne every 4 days! Enjoying every moment of it and thats probably my only exercise! laugh.gif
I think my kids also enjoy the open and close tap portion! biggrin.gif

Regards,
David Hou
CyberET
haiz.. i can't tahan the water bill of changing almost the same volume as you. so my kois have to suffer pop eye yikes.gif
gohks
QUOTE(ameister @ Tue, 21 Feb 2006 7:59 pm)
Can't do, the new place is already done and already moved in  unsure.gif.  If I were to get the contractors in and do as you suggest, my lady boss at home will surely do evil things to me... biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif

[
*


Convince your lady boss goldfish is a perfect healthy hobby that keeps man away from doing silly things that man likes to do, garaunteed she would let you do whatever you like next time ;)
aronkhj
Guys, i'm jus curious...

which gives you more pleasure... the fish or the hassle of keeping the fish??? ;)

and knowing sgp water cost, i think everytime you guys there change water can buy another fish!

shiok.gif
chanB
ameister,

Impressive drawing beg2.gif . you must be a engineer with Hyfxxx. If got the budget and managed to get approval from WIFE. go ahead. otherwise you can't sleep. explore and enjoy your hobby. please keep us posted.

try not to permanently fix all components as you may need to modify.

Chan
top_view_ranchu
QUOTE(aronkhj @ Wed, 22 Feb 2006 9:35 pm)
Guys, i'm jus curious...

which gives you more pleasure... the fish or the hassle of keeping the fish???  ;)

and knowing sgp water cost, i think everytime you guys there change water can buy another fish!

shiok.gif
*



Hi Aron,
Why wud one take up the hobby if there's any hassle??? dntknw.gif:
If you like the hobby, I suppose you sud only feel pleasure and not pressure! ;)

I used to wake up at 5am in the morning, go around picking up friends and drive a long distant into Malaysia just for an expensive game of golf. End of it, I'll be tired and red, but if you ask me if I'm interested to play again tomorrow? My reply will only be what time and which green. tongue.gif Some will only feel its ridiculous. Try explaining to your wife why EPL is so interesting!!! hmm.gif

Thus, this hobby to me is much cheaper and more comfortable. yes.gif Don't you agree? ;)

Btw, you're in Donguang but know of our water cost here? Are you a Singaporean working in China?

Regards,
David Hou
The Matrix
QUOTE(aronkhj @ Wed, 22 Feb 2006 9:35 pm)
Guys, i'm jus curious...

which gives you more pleasure... the fish or the hassle of keeping the fish???  ;)

and knowing sgp water cost, i think everytime you guys there change water can buy another fish!

shiok.gif
*


RIGHT ON ! The amount of water change at home is nearly 3 tonnes a month, more than enough to buy quite a good fish. But what the heck, the important thing is the fish is living in good condition.

Well, we can also think otherwise, if really get a good fish, why not pay more attention to ensure the fish not just survive but grow nicely in our hand. no point own an expensive fish and not taking care of the most essential part of the hobby.

for your 1st question, which give me more pleasure ... if the fish is growing nicely and not deteriorating, watever i do is worth the effort. that's fish keeping.
goldrush
Hey don't forget one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOLDFISHKEEPING is water change.Here it is again

CHANGE WATER: The key word is CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE. If you are not prepared to make drastic water changes, forget this hobby and keep something else. Clear water does not equate clean water. Be a master of water management and the water will manage your fish. Trust me. ...............
aronkhj
Cheers to us goldfish keepers!
Yes... i'm working in Dongguan. would you be interested in accquiring fishes from here!!! shiok.gif shiok.gif

I spent the better half of 2005 learning all the tricks of keeping goldfish... and to be honest, it is really alot harder that what people say. In fact I lost count on how many goldfish went to a better place coz of my in experience. But each gave their lives so that I could lern not to make same mistake again! laugh.gif

Oh.. i totally agree... having healthy fishes in a good clean water really makes a difficult day become peaceful again when you come back from work and jus spend 10mins watching them!

Cheers guys! good.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:09 pm)
To add on to what I advocate, it really depends on individual on how much time he would like to spend on this hobby.  No problem on tedious maintenance if you spend almost 100% of your time on this hobby.  On the other hand, if you only have 10% of your time to spare, I suggest you keep it simple or even give up this hobby.  A mismatch on this will definitely leads to stress and pressure and heavy casualty on your hobby.  death.gif
*


It makes me really wonder, in what ways do you find or feel that the maintenance tedious.
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 3:18 pm)
It makes me really wonder, in what ways do you find or feel that the maintenance tedious.
*


when is time for maintenance like emptying the tank, clean the filter, scrubbing the algae, everybody deep down the heart will feel "Oh! just another day of....." depending on how much passion you have, 1st few times maybe still feeling ok, but you would find it tiresom or bordersom if it takes too much effort (this will of course depend on the size and location of tank, your way of upkeep, and its condition)...u know what I mean. rusure.gif
I am talking about 10 - 20 yrs of life-long hobby here, if you make the routine too taxing, sooner or later you would have to drop or slow down. lol2.gif giveup.gif
Not to discourage but this is the fact everyone has to go thru. blush.gif
My flame is still buring but can feel the weakening due to aging sad.gif wacko.gif
desireless
In SG context, you can roughly estimate your electrical/water bills by using Dennis' Electricity and Water Billing Calculator here.

Maybe you can use the calculator to compare the cost of advocating water change and using RO

I think the idea of RO is really cool, if not for the cost involved. Just not economical.
ameister
Goldrush,

How frequently and how much of a water change do you do?

Thanks,

Ameister.
goldrush
That's a difficult question to answer for everybody

But personally I do a 100% water change every three days
yamato38gunkei
I have been breeding Ranchu for more than 20 years. The most important what I have learned is the following :

Beautiful Ranchu = healthy Ranchu = good water quality = water changes, water changes, water changes, water changes...

Regards,

Geert Coppens
ameister
QUOTE(goldrush @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 8:38 pm)
That's a difficult question to answer for everybody

But personally I do a 100% water change every three days
*



beg2.gif I am not worthy a goldfish keeper...

I am getting even more curious....

Can you please tell me how big is your tank and what is your water supply? If from Singapore, I presume you using tap water. If so, do you:
  • 1. Have a second tank, and aerate water for 1 day before?
  • 2. Transfer fish to secondary containter, at water, treat water to sequester the chlorine/amines, and return fish to main tank?
Please illuminate...

Thanks
ameister
QUOTE(aronkhj @ Wed, 22 Feb 2006 8:35 pm)

which gives you more pleasure... the fish or the hassle of keeping the fish???  ;)

*



I think the pleasure comes from how to improve and evolve.... Create the right setup that you minimize maintenance... enjoy the fish... every once in a while rip it apart and improve on your setup....
CP
QUOTE(ameister @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:25 pm)
I am getting even more curious....

Can you please tell me how big is your tank and what is your water supply?  If from Singapore, I presume you using tap water.  If so, do you:
  • 1. Have a second tank, and aerate water for 1 day before?

  • 2. Transfer fish to secondary containter, at water, treat water to sequester the chlorine/amines, and return fish to main tank?
Please illuminate...

Thanks
*


Since you are relatively new in this forum, do spend some time reading the old topics.
Here many of us do massive water changes, usually 80% to 100% weekly,and we do not age water as it will not get rid of the chloramines.
The Matrix
QUOTE(CP @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:05 pm)
Since you are relatively new in this forum, do spend some time reading the old topics.
Here many of us do massive water changes, usually 80% to 100% weekly,and we do not age water as it will not get rid of the chloramines.
*


CP, the friend here from Jarkata leh ... if i not wrong, they can age water depending on which part of the water system they draw the water from.
desireless
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 24 Feb 2006 1:10 am)
CP, the friend here from Jarkata leh ... if i not wrong, they can age water depending on which part of the water system they draw the water from.
*


Jarkata or Singapore, Chloramine cannot be removed simply by water aging. I am surprised many people living in countries which use chloramine in their water still practise Water aging method.

I have even read some local old birds advocating Water Aging and preaching it to newbies. hmm.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 5:28 pm)
when is time for maintenance like emptying the tank, clean the filter, scrubbing the algae, everybody deep down the heart will feel "Oh! just another day of....."  depending on how much passion you have, 1st few times maybe still feeling ok, but you would find it tiresom or bordersom if it takes too much effort (this will of course depend on the size and location of tank, your way of upkeep, and its condition)...u know what I mean. rusure.gif
I am talking about 10 - 20 yrs of life-long hobby here, if you make the routine too taxing, sooner or later you would have to drop or slow down. lol2.gif  giveup.gif
Not to discourage but this is the fact everyone has to go thru.  blush.gif
My flame is still buring but can feel the weakening due to aging  sad.gif  wacko.gif
*


i am stepping into the 30th yrs of fish keeping and for 20 yrs, i was a super lazy pig and try to change when see whole tank of fish wiped out. biggrin.gif young punk dunno anything mah. where got time ... date girls, watch movies, pub hopping more shiok.

it's 3 tonnes of water at home and i need to roll out few rubber hoses across the house to change water each time. that's weekly exercise. taxing, tired, bored ... maybe. just treat it as a form of regular exercise to sweat it out and that keep you young peace.gif . if there are too many negative thoughts, then it's never going to be a good hobby.

Most of the time, it's merely an hour job. I believe you spend more than an hour surfing net reading postings. Spend some quality time for the quality fish u got. Do it in the quiet nite or morning and turn on some light refreshing classic. As I am typing, the water is filling slowly. The fishes are enjoying nice clean clear water now ... ;)

and i will hv a good nice sleep.
The Matrix
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 24 Feb 2006 1:18 am)
Jarkata or Singapore, Chloramine cannot be removed simply by water aging. I am surprised many people living in countries which use chloramine in their water still practise Water aging method.

I have even read some local old birds advocating Water Aging and preaching it to newbies.  hmm.gif
*


So far they dun see anything wrong mah, aiya, who knows they using their magical method.

anyway, some countries not using chloramines if i not wrong.
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 24 Feb 2006 1:29 am)
i am stepping into the 30th yrs of fish keeping and for 20 yrs, i was a super lazy pig and try to change when see whole tank of fish wiped out.  biggrin.gif  young punk dunno anything mah. where got time ... date girls, watch movies, pub hopping more shiok.

it's 3 tonnes of water at home and i need to roll out few rubber hoses across the house to change water each time. that's weekly exercise. taxing, tired, bored ... maybe. just treat it as a form of regular exercise to sweat it out and that keep you young  peace.gif . if there are too many negative thoughts, then it's never going to be a good hobby.

Most of the time, it's merely an hour job. I believe you spend more than an hour surfing net reading postings. Spend some quality time for the quality fish u got. Do it in the quiet nite or morning and turn on some light refreshing classic. As I am typing, the water is filling slowly. The fishes are enjoying nice clean clear water now ...  ;)

and i will hv a good nice sleep.
*


I concurred that having good goldfish need good maintenance yes.gif it really boils down to individuals, who are the exceptions and who are the norms u folks decide. smile.gif
goldrush
Although water changes remain one of the key factors in attaining success in any aquarium hobby we must be receptive to new and innovative implementation to enhance our fish keeping.Time and tested procedures are foundation towards a good understanding of any subjects but at the same time be vigilant and aware of any recent development of your interest so as not to stifle out any possible breakthroughs.Reverse osmosis in theory ,looks and sounds good but in practice may be too time consuming and costly for many liking.Just like:


BMW IS THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE BUT MANY OF US CAN ONLY AFFORD ,THE MOST A PENULTIMATE ONE............. yes.gif


Cheers

goldrush
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 24 Feb 2006 1:29 am)
i am stepping into the 30th yrs of fish keeping and for 20 yrs, i was a super lazy pig and try to change when see whole tank of fish wiped out.  biggrin.gif  young punk dunno anything mah. where got time ... date girls, watch movies, pub hopping more shiok.

*


Wah! 30 yrs have past, u really got a deceiving name good.gif
ranchu8
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 24 Feb 2006 1:29 am)
it's 3 tonnes of water at home and i need to roll out few rubber hoses across the house to change water each time...
*


wah Matrix, 3 tonnes at home?? ok to say how many tanks and how many fishes? and all in green water? smile.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:17 am)
wah Matrix, 3 tonnes at home?? ok to say how many tanks and how many fishes? and all in green water? smile.gif
*


4x 3ft tubs, 2x 4 ft tank, 4x 2ft custom made square tank and many 2ft plastic/toyogo tanks. haha lost count of how many i got, plastic tank spoilt n throw n buy new ones. only 1 tub is green water, the rest air stone or sponge.

4ft tank i dun change weekly, only 1-2 fish in there. tubs around 10 pieces, 2ft tank 2-3 pieces and plastic tank 1 fish each.

still far from those discus breeding days, whole house all tanks, hall, rooms, toilets even outside the house biggrin.gif
ranchu8
wah, thanks Matrix for the info ... you sure have a supporting wife and family smile.gif
gohks
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:52 pm)
wah, thanks Matrix for the info ... you sure have a supporting wife and family smile.gif
*


As the saying goes, "Every successful man behind is a woman" good.gif beg2.gif tongue.gif
goldrush
Don't forget Behind every failed Man is ANOTHER woman!!!!!!!!!!!

rolleyes.gif
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