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KokiBali
Hi Bros and Sis,

My brother purchased these baby tosakin couples weeks ago, it starts changing colour now. Size about 3-4 cm (mouth to tail). All comments are welcome. Any advise in rearing them will be appreciated.

Thanks,
William.

Fish #1
IPB Image

Fish #2
IPB Image

Fish #3
IPB Image

Fish #4
IPB Image
KokiBali
These last 2 fish are of different bloodline of the previous 4.

Fish #5
IPB Image

Fish #6
IPB Image

Regards,
William.
CP
I am no expert, but I think that these are good quality tosakins.Very few tosakin keepers in this forum.

I have also read that Tosakin black babies maintain their black for a very long time,up to one year.Not too sure about that.
top_view_ranchu
Agree with CP. Looks good to me thou! good_very.gif
Are some of their open gills a problem? unsure.gif
KokiBali
QUOTE(CP @ Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:28 pm)
I am no expert, but I think that these are good quality tosakins.Very few tosakin keepers in this forum.

I have also read that Tosakin black babies maintain their black for a very long time,up to one year.Not too sure about that.
*




QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Tue, 21 Mar 2006 1:20 pm)
Agree with CP. Looks good to me thou! good_very.gif
Are some of their open gills a problem?  unsure.gif
*



Dear CP and David,

Thanks for your comment. CP you are right, it's quite difficult to find information on tosakin. Some said that tosakin is better keep in a bowl or round tub, with no air, current and filtration. The tail will be broad and beautiful. I haven't done this, but I think I will try it.

As for the open gills, I think it is because the fish was moved to a bowl for photo session. Fed them with frozen bloodworm because the pellet is still to big for their mouth. Can I feed them with Hikari Lionhead?

Best regards,
William.
ranchu8
wah, nice tosakin ... rarely see this quality of yong tosakin in Singapore, maybe because I've not been around enough ... must be even more difficult to take photos of tosakin (than tvr) since any movement will affect shape of the relatively big tail. I prefer tosakin #4 but is there a small fold in its tail?

Kokibali, is it ok to say whether these tosakin were bred in Japan, Indonesia or elsewhere?
chochiss
Nice fishes. I like fish #4 the most. Believe it will turn out to be such a beauty. good_very.gif
ranchu8
ps I also like tosakin #3 - tail has a good length smile.gif
yamato38gunkei
Please excuse me for spoiling the fun a little. I think the quality of these Tosakin is not so good. As with Ranchu, the tail is very important for Tosakin. All these Tosakin have a bad tail.

Please look very carefully at the drawing that I post with this message.

One of the important points is that the rear part of the tail should be wider than the part in the middle (the part before the tail starts to curl). All Tosakin have the middle part wider than the rear part.

Also look at the sideview drawing. The line of the tail should be horizontal. All Tosakin on the photos have the line of the tail that is higher. This is why they swim with their head down.

Heads should be longer and much more pointed. Bellies should be rounder. The body shape should be a triangle.

I hope I do not disappoint you too much. I know there is almost no information available about Tosakin outside Japan. This is why it is not easy to keep and breed them. It is necessary to keep the Tosai in bowls without aeration. Do not feed them bloodworm.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
KokiBali
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Tue, 21 Mar 2006 7:30 pm)
wah, nice tosakin ... rarely see this quality of yong tosakin in Singapore, maybe because I've not been around enough ... must be even more difficult to take photos of tosakin (than tvr) since any movement will affect shape of the relatively big tail.  I prefer tosakin #4 but is there a small fold in its tail?

Kokibali, is it ok to say whether these tosakin were bred in Japan, Indonesia or elsewhere?
*




QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:13 am)
ps I also like tosakin #3 - tail has a good length smile.gif
*



Thanks for your compliment. Wah, you have sharp eyes! I studied all photos of fish #4, I think you are right, it seems that the tail tends to fold. Here are more photos on fish #4:

IPB Image

IPB Image

These tosakin were bred in Indonesia, the breeder said all parents from Jap.

Regards,
William.
KokiBali
QUOTE(chochiss @ Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:53 pm)
Nice fishes. I like fish #4 the most. Believe it will turn out to be such a beauty. good_very.gif
*



Hi, Chociss. I hope so. Thanks for your compliment.

Regards,
William.
KokiBali
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 1:09 am)
Please excuse me for spoiling the fun a little.  I think the quality of these Tosakin is not so good.  As with Ranchu, the tail is very important for Tosakin.  All these Tosakin have a bad tail. 

....

Regards,

Geert Coppens
*



Hi, Geert. Thanks a lot for your comment, it is really enlighten me. Unfortunately, I can not open the PDF file (got scrambled text). Could you please send it by e-mail to williamd@hotpop.com?

Regarding the bowl, how big (diameter and height) is ideal for keeping 6 tosai tosakins? I heard that the water level should be 25 cm max. How about the water ratio, is it same as ranchu (80 ltr/fish)?

Regarding the feeding, why bloodworm is not recommended? Is it because live or frozen food is not safe? Is there any special food for tosakin or Hikari Lionhead is good enough?

Appreciate your advise.

Thanks,
William.
d_golem
QUOTE(KokiBali @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:46 am)
Unfortunately, I can not open the PDF file (got scrambled text).?
*


Same with me too. Also cannot open attached images & only got scrambled text rusure.gif
KokiBali
QUOTE(KokiBali @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 9:46 am)
Hi, Geert. Thanks a lot for your comment, it is really enlighten me. Unfortunately, I can not open the PDF file (got scrambled text). Could you please send it by e-mail to williamd@hotpop.com?

*



Geert, no need to send it. Finally I can open it. Maybe something wrong with my Adobe Acrobat Reader program.

It's in Japanese, can someone translate it into English please?

Thanks,
William.
chochiss
QUOTE(KokiBali @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:08 am)
Hi, Chochiss. I hope so. Thanks for your compliment.

Regards,
William.
*



My pleasure. You should have view Geert's trip to japan - the tosakin he posted. Marvelous fishes:

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...opic=1750&st=15
KokiBali
QUOTE(chochiss @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 1:41 pm)
My pleasure. You should have view Geert's trip to japan - the tosakin he posted. Marvelous fishes:

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...opic=1750&st=15
*



Yup, very beautiful tosakins good.gif You know what, we (I and my brother) decided to buy tosakin after seeing this Ogawa's tosakin. biggrin.gif
desireless
QUOTE(KokiBali @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:46 am)
Hi, Geert. Thanks a lot for your comment, it is really enlighten me. Unfortunately, I can not open the PDF file (got scrambled text). Thanks,
William.
*


QUOTE(d_golem @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:57 am)
Same with me too. Also cannot open attached images & only got scrambled text rusure.gif
*


You need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your PC to be able to read .pdf files.

Download the free here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
d_golem
QUOTE(desireless @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 7:28 pm)
You need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your PC to be able to read .pdf files.

Download the free here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
*


Already got Adobe Acrobat Professional. I only got problems here in RG when opening pdf files and attached images (the ones that u gotta click for full size).
ranchu8
QUOTE(d_golem @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:43 pm)
Already got Adobe Acrobat Professional. I only got problems here in RG when opening pdf files and attached images (the ones that u gotta click for full size).
*


Hi Desireless, i too have the same problem. Is it because my cpu (with Windows 98 SE) can only download Adobe 6 reader and the above needs Adobe higher version pls? I've just visited the site you helpfully linked and downloaded the latest version possible, I believe. I'll check this in office with Windows xp.

I'm grateful to Geert for his guidance again, this time in Tosakin which fascinates me. I've been wondering what makes a real good Tosakin. Maybe the above post with the Tosakin photos from the other thread mentioned above can be placed in an easy to referred to place for Tosakin info?
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(KokiBali @ Tue, 21 Mar 2006 8:19 am)
Dear CP and David,

Thanks for your comment. CP you are right, it's quite difficult to find information on tosakin. Some said that tosakin is better keep in a bowl or round tub, with no air, current and filtration. The tail will be broad and beautiful. I haven't done this, but I think I will try it.

As for the open gills, I think it is because the fish was moved to a bowl for photo session. Fed them with frozen bloodworm because the pellet is still to big for their mouth. Can I feed them with Hikari Lionhead?

Best regards,
William.
*



Hello William,

Bloodworm and Hikari Lionhead are NOT good for Tosakin ! Tosakin should be fed Daphnia, Tubifex and as a pellet food "Tosa Queen". Tosa Queen is made by the same manufacturer as Ranchu Lord.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(KokiBali @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 3:46 am)
Hi, Geert. Thanks a lot for your comment, it is really enlighten me. Unfortunately, I can not open the PDF file (got scrambled text). Could you please send it by e-mail to williamd@hotpop.com?

Regarding the bowl, how big (diameter and height) is ideal for keeping 6 tosai tosakins?  I heard that the water level should be 25 cm max. How about the water ratio, is it same as ranchu (80 ltr/fish)?

Regarding the feeding, why bloodworm is not recommended? Is it because live or frozen food is not safe? Is there any special food for tosakin or Hikari Lionhead is good enough?

Appreciate your advise.

Thanks,
William.
*



Hello William,

Here are some photos of the typical Tosakin Bowls. These bowls have a diametre of 55 cm. In these bowls, you can keep 10 to 15 Baby Tosakin (2-3 cm), 3 to 4 Tosai Tosakin or 2 to 3 Nisai Tosakin. A 100 % water change has to be done every day.

Regards,

Geert Coppens


IPB Image

IPB Image
yamato38gunkei
One more photo

\"IPB
KokiBali
QUOTE(desireless @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 6:28 pm)
You need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your PC to be able to read .pdf files.
*




QUOTE(d_golem @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 9:43 pm)
Already got Adobe Acrobat Professional. I only got problems here in RG when opening pdf files and attached images (the ones that u gotta click for full size).
*




QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:02 pm)
Hi Desireless, i too have the same problem.  Is it because my cpu (with Windows 98 SE) can only download Adobe 6 reader and the above needs Adobe higher version pls?  I've just visited the site you helpfully linked and downloaded the latest version possible, I believe. I'll check this in office with Windows xp.
*



Thanks for your help, Desireless. I am using Windows 98 and after re-installing the Adobe Acrobat Reader 5.0 then I can open the file from Geert. So, D_golem and Ranchu8, you can try it.

Regards,
William
d_golem
Hmm only in RG got problems, everywhere else is fine rusure.gif

Btw Geert, I think I know why you don't wanna keep tosakins laugh.gif they're too much work! (100% w/c everyday for that many bowls.....phew!)
KokiBali
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:52 pm)
Hello William,

Bloodworm and Hikari Lionhead are NOT good for Tosakin !  Tosakin should be fed Daphnia, Tubifex and as a pellet food "Tosa Queen".  Tosa Queen is made by the same manufacturer as Ranchu Lord.
*



Tosa Queen? I don't think I can find it here in Jakarta. Even JRL also difficult to find. I wonder if Hikari also have this kind of food, will try to find out.

Thanks a lot, Geert. You are so helpful! good.gif


QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:57 pm)
Hello William,

Here are some photos of the typical Tosakin Bowls.  These bowls have a diametre of 55 cm.  In these bowls, you can keep 10 to 15 Baby Tosakin (2-3 cm), 3 to 4 Tosai Tosakin or 2 to 3 Nisai Tosakin.  A 100 % water change has to be done every day.
*



Diameter 55 cm and I guess the height is 20-25 cm? So the water ratio is much lower than ranchu. A 100% water change everyday is labor intensive, as you said, but I think it's worth doing it. Hope I can groom it well.

Thanks,
William
ranchu8
QUOTE(d_golem @ Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:43 pm)
Already got Adobe Acrobat Professional. I only got problems here in RG when opening pdf files and attached images (the ones that u gotta click for full size).
*


After checking with an IT guy, the reason is simple: need to use Internet Explorer as browser when opening the pdf file, and not Firefox. D_golem, are you using Firefox?
d_golem
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Fri, 24 Mar 2006 6:46 pm)
After checking with an IT guy, the reason is simple: need to use Internet Explorer as browser when opening the pdf file, and not Firefox. D_golem, are you using Firefox?
*


LOL spot on tongue.gif

One more thing's bugging me though. Attached images (the one that u gotta click) I found out after a few days it turned into proper full-sized images that u don't have to click on. That's a good thing, but I wonder if that also becoz I'm using Firefox also? rolleyes.gif
yamato38gunkei
Another detail of one of the Tosakin Bowls of Mr. Ogawa.

Regards,

Geert Coppens

IPB Image
KokiBali
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:40 pm)
Another detail of one of the Tosakin Bowls of Mr. Ogawa.

Regards,

Geert Coppens


*




Thanks, Geert.

I tried to find info on Tosa Queen on the net, the protein content is 46% only (compare to JRL 52.1%). I don't know the ingredients, since it is in German (as below). Hikari doesn't have this kind of food, I guess. Is it sinking pellet or floating pellet?

I noticed that the fish in your photo (the upper right one) has a split tail, is it a culled tosakin?

Regards,
William.

Hi, alle!

Ich war bis vor zwei Wochen in Japan, hab' diesmal relativ wenig Zeit dort gehabt, dennoch wollte ich unbedingt eins machen: Futter anschauen.

In Japan gibt es nämlich Goldfischfutter nur für bestimmte Rassen.
Bei der rassenspezifischen Dosis geht es in erster Linie um die Frage, ob bei den Fischen das Geschwulst auf dem Kopf gut wachsen soll oder nicht + ob die Fische kräftig zunehmen sollen oder nicht.

Dann werden solche rassenspezifischen Futter je nach Alter der Goldfische verpackt. Ob die Substanzen anders sind, kannich nicht sagen, da ich nicht so genau darauf geachtet habe.

Als Probe habe ich drei Sorten mitgebracht. Der Gehalt sieht so aus:

(1) Roheiweiß (2) Rohfett (3) Rohfaser (4) Rohasche (5) sonstige
(6) Besonderheit, die der Hersteller hervorhebt
(7) Ingredienzen

A) Futtername "Ranchu Kizoku" , Produktname in Nordamerika "Japan Ranchu Lord":
Dies ist ein unter "normalen" Ranchuhaltern ziemlich beliebtes Futter für Ranchu im ersten Jahrgang.
(1) 52,1% (2) 7,9% (3) 3,8% (4) 14,5% (5) Ca 2,9%, P 1,8%
(6) Ausschluß von Weizenmehl [als Bindemittel] zur Vermeidung von Vedauungsstörungen / EPA u. DHA zugesetzt.
(7) Fischmehl, Okiami (kleine Fische), Tintenfische, Sojabohnen, Algen, Vitaminen, Hefe, Mineralien. Aminosäure enthalten. [Geschmacksverstärker??? shochi]

B) Futtername "Tosa Hime", Produktname in Nordamerika "Tosa Queen":
Dies ist für Tosakin und Ryukin (=bsd. die, die besonders dicken Bauch kriegen sollen).

(1) 46,0% (2) 5,6% (3) 5,0% (4) 12,6% (5) Ca.2.5% P 1,7%
(6) u. (7) siehe oben A); A) und B) werden von einer Tosakin-Farm in Kochi (der Ort, wo Tosakin her kommt) hergestellt.

C) Futtername "Hanaemi" für Osaka-Ranchu, Tosakin, Izumo-Nankin, Jikin, Ryukin (das sind alle runden Sorten ohne WEN)

(1) 30,0% (2) 5,5% (3) 20,0% (4) 7,0% (5) Feuchtigkeit 5,0%
(6) Dieses Futter ist bsd. geeignet dafür, die Fische am Bauch "runder" zu machen, ohne daß der WEN wächst. Besonders gut verdaulich.
(7) Fischmehl, Geflügelmehl (von Hähnchen), Alpha-Kartoffelmehl, Chitin & Chitosan (aus Krebsen/Garnelen), Chitosan-Origosäure, Vitaminen.

Das Futter wurde von einer Osakaranchu-Farm hergestellt, insb. als Konkurrenz zu (A).
yamato38gunkei
Hello William,

There is a Hikari food you can use for Tosakin : "Hikari Gold". It is not as good as Tosa Queen, but it can be an alternative.
I will try to translate the German text for you, but it may take some time as I am very busy.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
Ranchu Lover
What will happen if Tosakin are given ranchu pellets like JRL?
Guenther
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 9:38 am)
What will happen if Tosakin are given ranchu pellets like JRL?


I'm not an expert in Tosakin, only bred shubunkin, fantail, ryukin and now since one week I try breeding calico eggfish...
... but I think, looking to the analysis of JRL, you can use it for young fishes.
If the fish grow up, there must be not such very high protein in the feed I think.
Later, the fish needs more energy. So it is not fine to give the fish energy as protein, better is fat. If the energy is essentially in protein, the fish must produce ammonia to use the energy from protein.
Fat (fishoil) is the best digestible energy for the fish.

The sequence of digestible energy is fat, protein and then carbohydrate.
And the best digestible feed today is extruded feed.

Regards
Guenther
KokiBali
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 2:06 pm)
Hello William,

There is a Hikari food you can use for Tosakin : "Hikari Gold".  It is not as good as Tosa Queen, but it can be an alternative.
I will try to translate the German text for you, but it may take some time as I am very busy.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
*



Thank you so much, Geert. I think I can find Hikari Gold here. Regarding the translation, it's no hurry, just curious.

Regards,
William.
desireless
OK... let's not disturb Geert from his breeding routine... for a small thing like translation. biggrin.gif

This is what's being translated from yahoo online translation service and some help from Günther and Sabine.

====

I bring along three sorts of samples. The content looks in such a way:

(1) raw protein
(2) raw fat
(3) raw fiber
(4) raw ash
(5) other
(6) characteristic, those the manufacturer emphasizes
(7) Ingredients

A) Food name "Ranchu Kizoku", product name in North America "Japan Ranchu lord":
This is a food for Ranchu, a rather popular for "normal" owner for ranchus, in the first class.
(1) 52.1%
(2) 7.9%
(3) 3.8%
(4) 14.5%
(5) approx. 2.9%, P 1.8%
(6) It doesn't contain any wheat flour in order to avoid digestive problems. /EPA and DHA.
(7) fish flour, Okiami (small fish), squid, soy beans, algae, vitaminen, yeast, minerals. Amino acid contain. [ taste amplifiers??? shochi ]

B) Food name "Tosa Hime", product name in North America "Tosa Queen":
This is for Tosakin and Ryukin (= bsd. those, which particularly thick belly wars are).
(1) 46.0%
(2) 5.6%
(3) 5.0%
(4) 12.6%
(5) Ca.2.5% P 1.7%
(6) u.
(7) see above A);
A) and B) are manufactured by a Tosakin farm in Kochi (the place, where Tosakin comes from).

C) Food name "Hanaemi" for Osaka Ranchu, Tosakin, Izumo Nankin, Jikin, Ryukin (that are all round sorts without wens)
(1) 30.0%
(2) 5.5%
(3) 20.0%
(4) 7.0%
(5) humidity 5.0%
(6) this food is suitable for bsd. making the fish at the belly "rounder" without the wens grows. Particularly well digestible.
(7) fish flour, poultry flour (of cockerels), alpha potato flour, chitin & Chitosan (from cancer/shrimps), Chitosan Origosaeure, vitaminen. The food became from a Osakaranchu Farm?hergestellt, esp. as competition too (A).

====

Still a bit raw but I believe you can get the rough idea. ;)
Sabine
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 5:33 am)
A) Food name "Ranchu Kizoku", product name in North America "Japan Ranchu lord":
....(6) exclusion of wheat flour [ as bonding agents ] added for the avoidance of digesting disturbance/EPA and DHA.
(7) fish flour, Okiami (small fish), tintenfische,.......
*


To improve on the translation ;) : it doesn't contain any wheat flour in order to avoid digestive problems.
Tintenfische are squid.
KokiBali
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 5:33 pm)
OK... let's not disturb Geert from his breeding routine... for a small thing like translation. biggrin.gif

This is what's being translated from yahoo online translation service and some help from Günther and Sabine.

Still a bit raw but I believe you can get the rough idea.  ;)
*




QUOTE(Sabine @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 9:47 pm)
To improve on the translation  ;) : it doesn't contain any wheat flour in order to avoid digestive problems.
Tintenfische are squid.
*



Thanks a lot, really appreciate it. good.gif
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