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desireless
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It's a good practice to take note of your fish growth. But I admit I don't do that. tongue.gif

Another important point for Ryukin is that it requires larger space than ranchu for growth. 500L per young Ryukin is a rough guide. As it grows more than 5 inch, more space is required.
kencheng
wah? 500L? that is like a 5 feet tank for one baby ryukin? Or did you mean 50L?

3 feet tank is about 180 - 200 L depending on how deep / high
desireless
...

Demand for space for ryukin for growth is very high. 300-500L for for smaller than 5 inch long ryukin to.....

...

===
OK that was very confusing. rusure.gif

The point is. Once you manage to bring your ryukin to 4-5inch (or already this size when bought), bring them to outdoor with a minimum of 500L per ryukin.
gohks
hi.gif
ryukin needs to grow:-

Space: well, it depends on how big you want your ryukin to grow. "M" size (< 16cm) indoor 1 or 2 fishes per tank (min 4 ft) may be able to achieve. "XL" size (~ 18 to 20cm) definitely need outdoor and huge space. Of course, provided your fish is not a runt.

Food: Feed substantially, 4 to 5 times a day (preferably in day time) in 3 to 4 hrs interval. Choice of food and feeding method is critical as if not done properly will affect the fish buoyancy...If feeding dry pellets, soaking is a "MUST" for ryukin (you may get by without soaking for other fish, but not for ryukin). Any bloating or food impaction will cause your fish to capsize or flip (and this is irreversible)...trust me, it will save you alot of trouble by soaking..

Water conditions: green water with sunlight is much preferred..for good growth and coloration. Cleared water must be tip-top, with conditions checked frequently...Again, any internal problems (e.g. intestinal parasites) will render your fish to lose it buoyancy and this is non-treatable.. sad.gif
Hamad
Come on now, saying 500L minimum per fish makes this whole thing sound too crazy and hopeless, can you elaborate more and tell me why do we need that much space to keep a 4" ryukin? Is there a scientific reason behind this?

I mean I've seen comets grow to full potential in a 100-200L tank.
desireless
Halo Hamad,

I agree that the space demand for ryukin is rather unacceptable for small-time hobbyists like us. But if size really matters then, you'll just have to give it the right environment. Anyway, comets and ryukins are 2 poles apart. The demands for both kinds of fish are different. Having said that, demands for different goldfish species also differ.

What I am saying is: Demand for space for ryukins is very much different from the guideline given for ranchus. The 100L per fish is a rough guideline for growth for smaller ranchus (<5inch) and other egg shaped, but for ryukins you cannot use the same guidelines.

For ranchus, you can achieve 6inch or 7inch ranchu with indoor conditions like frequent water change, good food and 100-200L/fish, blah blah... But you can hardly bring a ryukin to 5-6inch by doing the same. If size is really your concern, put a 3" ryukin in a 200L/fish tank. You will only achieve at most 4 inch and if you're really skilled, 5 inch. That's so even if you change water everyday.

Now that's based on experience with short-tailed ryukins, because for short-tailed there's a tendency to focus on bodily length rather than overall length. For long-tailed ryukin, as the tail does grow, it kinds of give you false impression that the fish has grown quite a bit.
Hamad
Damn that's a lot of work for Ryukins, it's the first time I ever heard of this!

What about Butterflies/Demekins/Telescopes? I've read in a couple of places that they're close to Ryukins (I clearly remember a book stating they're simply ryukins with telescope eys), does that mean they require the same amount of effort?
desireless
Actually it doesn't take that much effort on the owner. There's nothing much special for ryukins except the hugh requirement for space.

If you think hard enough, those are the same requirements for ANY kind of goldfish. It is just that to be successful with ryukins (if seeing them grow really matters), you NEED to have those requirements met. Else, just be happy with what you have bought, for personal enjoyment.
愛到你心驚驚-想到你心痛痛
Yo desireless hi.gif thks for tips on a mystery I never solve for years. I personally owns 8 ryukins. Only 2 that are alr 15cm when I buy them, not 1 gets pass the 5inch mark!! mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif!!! I try many types of pellets. Spirilina, lionhead, saki growth, et etc any brands I can think of! I house 2 ryukins in each of my 4 feet tanks. And I change water every week as I learn from here but no improvement. Got 1 that I own for 2 yrs. Maybe grow 1cm or 2cm but seems very same as at first. Very frustrating! Do you think my ryukins are stunt already?
The Matrix
wah seh .... size to water vol is never a straight line but it will reach a peak of 2 tonnes water per fish if one is really crazy enough. In many cases that one saying 80-100L per fish is merely a guideline to maintain a goldfish. As they grow in length, they also grow in mass and the vol of water also expands exponentially.

Not every fish variety require such a large space. But there are some experiments conducted that goldfish can be keep in a tight small vol and grew to over the length of 24" (long tailed variety) - basically constant water change 24 hours a day. So if you have that $$$, or stay near a moderate flowing river, give it a try. 50++cm Bruce is not kept in a tank anyway.

So if a hobbyist is not as crazy, it is best not to go into the vol-mass ratio thingy.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(desireless @ Mon, 27 Mar 2006 7:25 pm)
For ranchus, you can achieve 6inch or 7inch ranchu with indoor conditions like frequent water change, good food and 100-200L/fish, blah blah... But you can hardly bring a ryukin to 5-6inch by doing the same. If size is really your concern, put a 3" ryukin in a 200L/fish tank. You will only achieve at most 4 inch and if you're really skilled, 5 inch. That's so even if you change water everyday.
*


Does that means that I will not be able to raise 6 pieces of TVR to grow more than 6 inches in the same 150 liters tub?
desireless
Halo Lim,

Talking about RYUKIN (liew kim, 琉金) here. Please stay focus. Not every fish requires that kind of space. RYUKIN particularly requires high water volume
to see them grow

And as a RYUKIN reaches the size of 5 inch, if you want to keep them growing, the space requirement would make indoor condition unsuitable. (But given the same condition, you can still keep ranchu grow.)

I really hate to bring in names... but, if you have been to goldfish talks hosted by Mr Alvin Lim, you would have noted his points (which he mentioned more than once) that different goldfish have different space requirement. If you have been to his most recent talk at QH, then you would also have taken note of the exponential curve he has drawn for "Goldfish length versus litres/fish". Like Matrix says, it is not a staight-line curve. On that curve, a 7-inch fish requires 1 tonne of water. Ask CP and ranchu8 who were there, and you know I am not bullshitting.

Your scenario, of course can work. But take hint from Matrix's post before mine on how this can be done.
desireless
QUOTE(愛到你心 @ Mon, 27 Mar 2006 10:26 pm)
Yo desireless hi.gif thks for tips on a mystery I never solve for years. I personally
....
*


wow.. please show some pix of your 15cm ryukins! It sure looks good with your palm underneath. If your ryukins stay at the same size for 2 years then chances is that they are stunted already.

I know it is difficult for some hobbyists to swallow the space requirement of ryukins. I can sense from Hamad's reaction that he is one of those who finds this very hard to accept. Trust me, I had the same response.

But I'd like to emphasize that: you observe this space requirement if your satisfaction comes from seeing your RYUKINS grow. If you're just a normal hobbyist who buys fish to enjoy looking at, then you can forego this space requirement thingy. It's no big deal anyway.

I am simply sharing from other people's experience on short-tailed ryukins. Ask 10 ryukin players, 9 of them will tell you their ryukins kept indoor won't grow beyond 5 inch. The remaining 1 is probably boosting. lol.gif If someone wants to prove what I have written today wrong, please start an experiment with SIX 3-inch ryukins in a 150litres tub. Then 6 months later come back to this topic and post your observations, if all your 6 ryukins grow beyond 5 inches under those conditions. I sincerely do hope that someone takes this challenge up and able to prove otherwise.
Ranchu Lover
Don't be mistaken that I am doubting your comments. I believed that you must have learned it from some people or have learned it yourself. We are all learning and I think this RG forum is meant for hobbyist to discuss and also to learn.

I have not been to any of the goldfish forum conducted by the experts and I am not in a position to comment. All I am trying to confirm here is that there is a requirement/recommendation for a certain critical amount of water to bring a TVR or SVR to grow beyond certain length as put forward by some experts in this field. I am sure that they have made some established conclusion based on the many thousands of goldfish that they have raised. I am only a small time hobbyist with only 2 150 litres tub stacking one on top of the other to raise my ranchu in my HDB balcony.

Does this means that I am doomed to only raise 2 TVR if I want them to grow more than 6 inches. Is there an alternative for me?
desireless
Not a problem man. I am just surprised that you've brought up your TVR scenario out of a sudden. I hope now you can see where my emphasis is.

The essence of this discussion here is that RYUKIN requires lots of space, more than any goldfish species that I have know of, to maximized its growth. But if you cannot provide the space requirement, chances is it will just stop growing and become stunted. But what's the big deal - You can sometimes find 'finished' ryukins at 4inch. Sometimes it is better that they remain at that stage/size.


Ahh... and the ryukin in the picture doesn't look stunted biggrin.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Mon, 27 Mar 2006 10:56 pm)
Does that means that I will not be able to raise 6 pieces of TVR to grow more than 6 inches in the same 150 liters tub?
*


Ryukin is ryukin. Ranchu is Ranchu. Oranda is Oranda. Pearl is Pearl.

Each variety has its basic requirement.

I do not doubt that you or any other could raise some fishes to above certain size in a limited space. There are always something not stated within the simplifed statement. There are always some means to do so.

If one could find good and feasible method that provide an alternative to the fish basic needs, by all means, please do so.

There is no right or wrong, just improvements along the way.
Guenther
QUOTE(Hamad @ Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:49 am)
I mean I've seen comets grow to full potential in a 100-200L tank.


Yes.

I don't know how much a ryukin can grow in one year, here is another climate than in Singapore.
But I can show you, how much fantail can grow, here in Germany in my 260 Liter tank.
I tested it more then 1 year with different fishfood at ~ 21 Celsius.
In the 260 Liter tank i checked it with 6! Fantail in it.

Every week I changed ~ 60% from water.
Today, I can say, the fantail, with better high digestibel extrudated food I use, better can grow up then in the test.

Here you can see it on my chart:

http://www.shubunkin.de/upload/detail.asp?id=735

Regards
Guenther
desireless
wow... good.gif

snowy, that's the standard way of making a record of growth on your ranchu, pearlscales, oranda, etc! A good reference for you in how to do it systematically perhaps!
kencheng
AIYAH! Tidak lah now! I only keep ryukin - better start buying more big tubs *sobs* I always thought ryukin same as other fish - was intending to keep 2 in a 3 feet tank but so much for that plan! ARGH!
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 1:22 am)
Ryukin is ryukin. Ranchu is Ranchu. Oranda is Oranda. Pearl is Pearl.

Each variety has its basic requirement.

I do not doubt that you or any other could raise some fishes to above certain size in a limited space. There are always something not stated within the simplifed statement. There are always some means to do so.

If one could find good and feasible method that provide an alternative to the fish basic needs, by all means, please do so.

There is no right or wrong, just improvements along the way.
*


The issue here is that, is space the only way to get maximum growth for your goldfish. If not then, what other ways are there?
desireless
Yo Lim... your question is ummm... no.gif.

Space is not "the only way". It is a "requirement". And it is ONE OF the essential requirements. If someone is foolish enough to put his fish in a big pond of 5tonnes of water, thereby fulfilling the space requirement, and does nothing else, then his fish would still not grow well. He still need to feed premium food and change water regularly

BTW, if you're talking about ranchu....
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Thu, 23 Mar 2006 6:31 am)
Hello David,

I am confident that I will have a good number of high quality Tosai, but many more will have to be culled....  Very important is space and good water quality  !  This means keeping as less as possible.At the time being, I have about 200-250 in each pond (150 cm x 100 cm).  I do a 100 % water change every 4 days.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
*



QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Thu, 23 Feb 2006 9:47 pm)
I have been breeding Ranchu for more than 20 years.  The most important what I have learned is the following :

Beautiful Ranchu = healthy Ranchu = good water quality = water changes, water changes, water changes, water changes...
Regards,

Geert Coppens
*


Of course... plus good food. For eg, Geert uses JRL.

If you're talking about ryukin growth, then space is a compulsory requirement, on top of those mentioned above.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 7:39 pm)
The issue here is that, is space the only way to get maximum growth for your goldfish. If not then, what other ways are there?
*


your question is really quite .... weird ... only way

with oxygen alone, you can't live till this age right ?

some grow up in kampong, some condo
some grow up eating fish and chips, some finding bites and pieces

they all grow up.

But could you assure that how u grow the only variety you are referring the same way as other varieties, some 600+++ of them ?

Chinese Goldfish, not just ranchu.
CP
QUOTE(Guenther @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 3:01 am)
.........Here you can see it on my chart:
*


.............Now here is one serious goldfish keeper. beg2.gif
CHLeong
Hi Guenther,
You have provided a very interesting information on the growth of gold fish. Thank you!

Rgds
CH Leong
egwinh
all,

so the conclusion, is it possible for Ranchu Lover to keep his 6 TVR in his 150L tub, and have them grow 6 inch ?? wacko.gif

rgds,
cheangv
Do you also include the water from the filter tank?
IM A RANCHU :)
QUOTE(kencheng @ Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:41 am) *

wah? 500L? that is like a 5 feet tank for one baby ryukin? Or did you mean 50L?

3 feet tank is about 180 - 200 L depending on how deep / high

Lol!
That's pretty ridiculous...
Some people who breed goldfish commercially say 1l for i inch for each fish..

your mate, Joe peace.gif
nygold
QUOTE(IM A RANCHU :) @ Thu, 07 Jan 2010 8:50 am) *

Lol!
That's pretty ridiculous...
Some people who breed goldfish commercially say 1l for i inch for each fish..

your mate, Joe peace.gif


The topic is about raising very BIG Ryukin. Not other types of fish and not 1000 fish to 1 inch in length.
I had 4 ryukin in a 40 gallon tank and couldn't get any of them over 4 1/2inches (10 to 11cm). Then I started a large green water set up and my largest ryukin is 6 inches or so around (15 to 16cm).
Ryukin grow at a very slow rate. If I'm not mistaken they are the slowest growing of all the fancy goldfish.
I believe this is why people make a big deal out of big Ryukin it takes alotof space, time and work to grow a Ryukin over 5 inches.
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