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GoldfisHub
Hi Guys,

I am in the mist of setting a goldfish tank, for the sump tank, I intend to place lots of coral chips so that I can achieve the effect as in the marine tank and hopefully that can get rid of NO3. However, with lots of coral chips, will it affect the water condition and hence affect the grooming of goldfish, like pH, Calcium not sure what else. Anyone has any experience or thoughts to share?
CP
Do a search on "coral chips" and "pH buffer" and you should get most of your answers.

It will NOT get rid of nitrates.It is basically used as a pH buffer; ie to prevent the pH from dropping during the nitrification process.
The Matrix
QUOTE(GoldfisHub @ Fri, 07 Apr 2006 4:13 pm)
Hi Guys,

I am in the mist of setting a goldfish tank, for the sump tank, I intend to place lots of coral chips so that I can achieve the effect as in the marine tank and hopefully that can get rid of NO3. However, with lots of coral chips, will it affect the water condition and hence affect the grooming of goldfish, like pH, Calcium not sure what else. Anyone has any experience or thoughts to share?
*


Calcium increase your gH. Coral is not easy to "dissolve", probably takes years to do so. The chemical breaking down from the coral will help you buffer your kH and gH.

Dun expect it to do wonder unless u put in a lot.

Anyway, coral dun remove NO3. How did you got this info ?
GoldfisHub
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 07 Apr 2006 9:06 pm)
Calcium increase your gH. Coral is not easy to "dissolve", probably takes years to do so. The chemical breaking down from the coral will help you buffer your kH and gH.

Dun expect it to do wonder unless u put in a lot.

Anyway, coral dun remove NO3. How did you got this info ?
*


Actually, I am thinking of putting a lot in the sump tank, like almost fill up so that I can creat a region with no or little oxygen. Hopefully, this will encourage anaerobic BB to grow and get rid of NO3. Do you think this works?

Hi CP, thank you. I read thru quite a few. Umm.. thinking of this so that I can be a little lazy and hopefully only change little water at lower frequency.
goldrush
where in the world did you get info that corals neutralise NO3 and worst you want to encourage anaerobes growth thro their colonisation....only to killyour fish!!!!!


hmm.gif hmm.gif hmm.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(GoldfisHub @ Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:18 pm)
Actually, I am thinking of putting a lot in the sump tank, like almost fill up so that I can creat a region with no or little oxygen. Hopefully, this will encourage anaerobic BB to grow and get rid of NO3. Do you think this works?

Hi CP, thank you. I read thru quite a few. Umm.. thinking of this so that I can be a little lazy and hopefully only change little water at lower frequency.
*


hmmmm .... theoretically, chemically speaking, you might consider it will work.

If nitrification cause end product of nitrates, what are the end product of denitrification with your stated method ?
GoldfisHub
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:59 pm)
hmmmm .... theoretically, chemically speaking, you might consider it will work.

If nitrification cause end product of nitrates, what are the end product of denitrification with your stated method ?
*


Actually following the idea of denitrifying unit, water flow is very slow in the unit, the area passing through is low in oxygen, anaerobic BB grows, these will strip the oxygen off the NO3 in order to survive, leaving only N2 gas. If can work, it acts as buffer, calcium supply, get rids of NO3, hee hee, better water condition, lesser water change frequency, wow ideal situation.

Hi Goldrush, pardon me, I am still learning, how does anaerobic BB affect or cause the death of goldfish? Appreciate your sharing.
\"IPB
goldrush
Now I get what you mean.
Aerobes are nitrifying bacteria which we are familiar with and we are taught to promote its striving and anaerobes are de-nitrifying ones which are incorporated in reef and marine tank setup. Before one want to try a denitrifying filter read up on the subject as such anaerobic filters, if not used carefully, can do more harm than good if added to an already-established aquarium as most anaerobes are facultative opportunist and pathogenic in nature.So proceed with caution. biggrin.gif
Sabine
A thread about this topic has just recently started here:
http://www.goldfishparadise.com/forum/phpB...der=asc&start=0
Seems to be a hot topic at the moment - but I rather stick to frequent large water changes! There is more to water changes than just the nitrate accumulation, IMHO.
gohks
QUOTE(GoldfisHub @ Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:12 pm)
Actually following the idea of denitrifying unit, water flow is very slow in the unit, the area passing through is low in oxygen, anaerobic BB grows, these will strip the oxygen off the NO3 in order to survive, leaving only N2 gas. If can work, it acts as buffer, calcium supply, get rids of NO3, hee hee, better water condition, lesser water change frequency, wow ideal situation.

Hi Goldrush, pardon me, I am still learning, how does anaerobic BB affect or cause the death of goldfish? Appreciate your sharing.

*


Your proposal should work. As mentioned before, I have a congested tank with UGF and NO3 is not a problem for me. However, I have a 2 ft bare tank and NO3 is always creep out of spec. If you provide enough coral chips and just do the refilling without cleaning it often, NO3 should be kept in check.
I read somewhere NO3 is always a problem for bare tank but not one for coral bed or sump tank with water flowing thru. peace.gif
GoldfisHub
Hi Guys,

Thank you for sharing your feedback, suggestions and link. I will be setting up the tank in the next 2 weeks. I have an old chiller, lots of coral chips and metal halide from my ex-marine tank. Will try to setup in the next few weeks and will let you know the result.
gohks
It will be good if you can have some pictures too smile.gif
GoldfisHub
QUOTE(gohks @ Sat, 08 Apr 2006 5:36 pm)
It will be good if you can have some pictures too  smile.gif
*


Will take some pics along the way. My tank will be coming next week.
Kinder
Has anybody heard from Goldfishub on this topic?
goofy1984
Hi everyone,

I need some advise from bros here with regards to the above-mentioned:

PH : 5.5
Ammonia : 0
Nitrite : 0
Nitrate : 50 mg/l

Have been having this problem for 2 weeks liao, still cannot resolve low ph and high nitrates problem. Nitrates can go up as high as 100 mg/l in a week. My current setup is a 500 litre tub (outdoor) serviced by 2 cannister filters loaded with biohome only and a 13w UVC. In the tub are 9 ryukins and 1 tosakin. Pls. advise how can i up the ph and reduce the nitrate build-up. Water change is about 50% a week. Thank you in advance.
Kinder
Answer to your "Low PH" crises!

Click Here - PH Buffer

But note if you go ahead & buffer....please do a 100% water change and then buffer your new water. Coz there could be ammonium present in your tank, which is different than 0ppm ammonia reading.

And this topic is about 4pages...so please read all of it.

cheers
Kinder
gohks
Remove all the material from one of your canister and totally fill it up with coral chips, nothing else. Run it for 1 week (without water change) and measure your pH and NO3. bigwink.gif You will be getting surprise results. smile.gif)
The Matrix
outdoor sure to have a lot of wall algae one leh ... unless u scrub off lah.

2 cannisters overkill liao. gohks already mentioned 1 of the method and buffering is another. add both together u got a better solution. if u want to invest more money, can use oyster shells.

must be feeding a lot right ? u can try by changing more water weekly. reduce your loading ( 10 fish in small tub ... ) or u can try using nitrate removing resin as discuss in RG recently. Ask the doc for more info .
goofy1984
Hi everyone,

Thanks for your advise. Loaded coral chips on 1 tray of both of my cannisters, 5 days already and ph stay at 7.5, ammonia & nitrites 0 and nitrate at less than 50mg/l. Also changed both pumps to eheim cos both boyu pumps were running significantly slow even though i dismantled and cleaned them. Thanks.
gohks
QUOTE(goofy1984 @ Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:18 am) *

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your advise. Loaded coral chips on 1 tray of both of my cannisters, 5 days already and ph stay at 7.5, ammonia & nitrites 0 and nitrate at less than 50mg/l. Also changed both pumps to eheim cos both boyu pumps were running significantly slow even though i dismantled and cleaned them. Thanks.


Glad to hear that. Keep monitoring the NO3, as you should be able to keep it in check with the right coral chips setup. No chemical or algae means which alot of people don't believe laugh.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(goofy1984 @ Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:18 am) *

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your advise. Loaded coral chips on 1 tray of both of my cannisters, 5 days already and ph stay at 7.5, ammonia & nitrites 0 and nitrate at less than 50mg/l. Also changed both pumps to eheim cos both boyu pumps were running significantly slow even though i dismantled and cleaned them. Thanks.


Continue the monitoring. take yr time to learn more new things.
desireless
QUOTE(gohks @ Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:52 pm) *

Glad to hear that. Keep monitoring the NO3, as you should be able to keep it in check with the right coral chips setup. No chemical or algae means which alot of people don't believe laugh.gif

It is not that we don't believe the wonder of coral chips but rather, I do not encourage members to use coral chips to maintain nitrates. The usage of Coral chips as a nitrate/dirt absorber...

.....
.....

So the bottomline is stilll..... Water change, water change and water change.
gohks
desireless,
Actually is not absorption, but the effect of denitrifying. When the canister filled with corals, water flow is very slow and area passing through is low in oxygen, anaerobic BB grows, these will strip the oxygen off the NO3 in order to survive, leaving only N2 gas. If canister is big with lots of coral, NO3 could even be zero. You could still change water regularly to get rid of other unwanted products, but NO3 problem is behind us. Don't forsee any other side effect if you have enough areation in your tank.
So, instead of using chemical or algae/plant means, this will be a better method if you have a spare canister.
desireless
Umm... thanks for bringing that out. but why specifically coral chips and not bio balls which is more commonly used as denitrifying media?

The downside with coral chips is that they tend to trap debris/dirt easily and if not treated, will bring about a nitrate boom. Usually it wil be too late to take actions by then.
gohks
I think the shape and size of coral chips can easily create a compact "dead zone" in a long canister which anaerobic BB thrive. Moreover, it gives the 2 in 1 benefits of buffering and BB. This setup needs maintenance like any other filter to take care of the debris/dirt of concerns. yes.gif
ranchu8
I don't know much/experience about all these but there seems to be some problems. If dead zone, how does NO3 in all the different parts of the water get denitified? If the different parts of the water go through this area, how can it be devoid of O2 since denitrifying bacteria are essentially anaerobic? And do these anaerobic bacteria produce toxins? Has anyone measured such a system showing negligible NO3?
desireless
Actually I have been waiting someone to burst "this balloon of mystery" laugh.gif

I asked "why specifically coral chips" is because I feel that there is a need to be opened about the role of coral chips in denitrifying mechanism. From what we (Goldrush and me) gather from hobbyists who use coral chips, there seems to be a mutual acceptance that it helps in controling nitrates. Except that from how the information was put to us, we could not understand how this was done.

The unwillingness to open up has caused quite a lot of misunderstanding about coral chips. It made people think that coral chips has some magical chemical effect on nitrates. I am not shy to say that I was one of them. So when Goh mentioned that "water flow is very slow and area passing through is low in oxygen", it suddenly became very clear, how the physical aspects of coral chips "help" in the denitrifying process.


It is NOT the chemical effect from the coral chips themselves that is doing the denitrifying, but rather, the physical textures that can sustain anaerobic bacteria, which in turn converts nitrates into nitrogen gas


This is basically the concept behind TT (Trickle Tower), which is widely adopted by koi hobbyists.

So, if someone is wondering why your friends keep telling you that "coral chips help in controlling nitrates", Goh has already given you an answer here.
gohks
Perhaps that could explain why my UGF laid with thk coral chips has constantly unbelievable zero NO3 compared to having an exploding NO3 on bare tank happydance1.gif and people has been promoting layers of coral chips in sump tank to take care of NO3 is indeed true. yes.gif Of course, the trade off would be the mentioned "time-bomb" if this setup is not well maintained.
Now I understand why some people stress and live by coral chips being a MUST and very important in goldfish keeping. smile.gif)
The Matrix
not bad at all. continue to explore on this topic and find more risks and exceptions. not entirely correct to say " coral chips help in conrolling nitrates ", but getting close.
GoldfisHub
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:37 am) *

not bad at all. continue to explore on this topic and find more risks and exceptions. not entirely correct to say " coral chips help in conrolling nitrates ", but getting close.

Hi All, sorry for not keeping with any updates on my setup. A major mistake that I had created in my design causing a bit of problem hence did not work as I wanted it to be. The mechanical filter was not robust enough to take care of all the poo poo, hence quite a fair bit went into the coral chips area. Looking at the situation, within a few months, the coral chips area will be clog and will cause a lot of problem.

Quite busy for this period of time hence will re-do the sump tank when got more time.
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