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desireless
Eh...

The fish may be disqualify if the following is observed:
1. Deformity
2. Injury
3. Disease
4. Incorrect categorization



If someone has a lionchu and he "thinks" he has a ranchu and submitted his fish as a Classification 01, will the fish be disqualified?
The Matrix
Refer to Rules and Regulations Clauses #6. It may be disqualified. Email a digitized photo to organiser for verification. However, the final decision is based on the judges and the pertaining fish specification for the class.
Ranchu Lover
Size is mentioned as one of the judging criteria. Does that means that a 15cm fish will score more marks than a 10cm fish?

I have also noticed that there is a clear distinction between short tail and long tail Rukin. Any reason why not for pearl scale?
The Matrix
Due to the sensitivity of sending a digitized photo to the organiser, one could just send the head of the fish (ranchu related) will be sufficient. You need not send the entire fish pic.

Only for verification purpose.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 08 Apr 2006 7:10 am)
Size is mentioned as one of the judging criteria. Does that means that a 15cm fish will score more marks than a 10cm fish?

I have also noticed that there is a clear distinction between short tail and long tail Rukin. Any reason why not for pearl scale?
*


Size is one of the criteria but a fish is judged based on the completeness.

For short tail pearlscale, to obtain bigger than 15cm is not common and distinctive separation from the pearlscale class will be very difficult to see active participation in the large category. This does not mean that the short tail pearl will not do well in the large fish category, a big 15cm fish is a really a massive fish compare to the long tail varieties.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sat, 08 Apr 2006 11:53 am)
Size is one of the criteria but a fish is judged based on the completeness.
*


Thanks for the reply. What I am asking is that if all things being equal, a 15cm fish will score more points than a 10 cm one. For example if 20 points are award for size, all things being equal here, a 10 cm fish will score probably 0 point and a 15 cm one will score 20 points. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 08 Apr 2006 12:04 pm)
Thanks for the reply. What I am asking is that if all things being equal, a 15cm fish will score more points than a 10 cm one. For example if 20 points are award for size, all things being equal here, a 10 cm fish will score probably 0 point and a 15 cm one will score 20 points. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.
*


Points are awarded based on the judges decision. As for the scoring mechanism, I am not in the position to discuss.

Based on personal experience, if there are only 2 fish in comparison and all features are the same, a bigger fish will relatively win over a small one.
Ranchu Lover
The fish may be disqualify if the following is observed:
1. Deformity
2. Injury
3. Disease
4. Incorrect categorization
I am very curious to know to what extent is a deformity serious enough to warrant a disqualification? Will this oranda be disqualified?

IPB Image
goldrush
Your 10-15cm is measured from head to tail end or peduncle? rolleyes.gif
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sat, 08 Apr 2006 12:34 pm)
Points are awarded based on the judges decision. As for the scoring mechanism, I am not in the position to discuss.

Based on personal experience, if there are only 2 fish in comparison and all features are the same, a bigger fish will relatively win over a small one.
*


Am I right to say that if the smaller fish is slightly (say one point difference) better than the bigger fish, then if size does not matter, the smaller fish wins. Or if I am wrong, then the bigger fish will win the smaller fish.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 7:12 pm)
The fish may be disqualify if the following is observed:
1. Deformity
2. Injury
3. Disease
4. Incorrect categorization
I am very curious to know to what extent is a deformity serious enough to warrant a disqualification? Will this oranda be disqualified?


*


Deformity as in the fish is not within the specification. Let say a ranchu which is supposed to have a short tail but if someone submit a long tail is not within the specificiation then there is a possibility of disqualifying the entry. In fact, that long tail version is known as a egg fish pheonix tail, not a ranchu.

As long as the fish does not has deformed body parts, like damaged mouth, folded gills, missing fins (except single anal fin) etc, it should not be disqualified.
The Matrix
QUOTE(goldrush @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 10:30 pm)
Your 10-15cm is measured from head to tail end or peduncle? rolleyes.gif
*


Mouth to end of tail.

Personal advice, do not risk putting a slightly bigger or smaller fish. The judges are quite strict on this.
ranchu8
Hi Matrix, ok to say who are the judges? smile.gif

ps long time didn't hear from you smile.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 10:40 pm)
Am I right to say that if the smaller fish is slightly (say one point difference) better than the bigger fish, then if size does not matter, the smaller fish wins. Or if I am wrong, then the bigger fish will win the smaller fish.
*


I could not provide much information on how the judges will decide.

I would like to say that there are major international shows having smaller fishes taking the top prize. Some of the shows are without size categorisation.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:07 pm)
Mouth to end of tail.

Personal advice, do not risk putting a slightly bigger or smaller fish. The judges are quite strict on this.
*


I have this dilemma. I am planning to send in an oranda (my one and only oranda) which is 14.5 cm at the moment. It might grow beyond 15 cm by the time of competition, it might not. Any advise here?
The Matrix
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:13 pm)
Hi Matrix, ok to say who are the judges?  smile.gif

ps long time didn't hear from you  smile.gif
*



Sorry friend. I cannot reveal who are the judges. However, these are recognised judges that have many years of judging major competitions and trade shows. One thing I can say, there will not be any Singapore judges.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:19 pm)
I have this dilemma. I am planning to send in an oranda (my one and only oranda) which is 14.5 cm at the moment. It might grow beyond 15 cm by the time of competition, it might not. Any advise here?
*


Your problem is well echoed among many hobbyists. And that include myself. tongue.gif

I would standby another smaller fish just in case I have submitted an entry for Cat A.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:28 pm)
Your problem is well echoed among many hobbyists. And that include myself.  tongue.gif

I would standby another smaller fish just in case I have submitted an entry for Cat A.
*


How to when I am keeping all my TVRs and oranda in the same tub. No other option for now.

BTW if the judges are so strict regarding the length, what will happen if the fish is hoovering at the 15 cm plus and minus range on the day of the competition? You know that tail can rise and fall depending on the position etc.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:46 pm)
How to when I am keeping all my TVRs and oranda in the same tub. No other option for now.

BTW if the judges are so strict regarding the length, what will happen if the fish is hoovering at the 15 cm plus and minus range on the day of the competition? You know that tail can rise and fall depending on the position etc.
*


I would not know how will the judges decide on the actual day.
ranchu8
Thanks Matrix,

from this thread http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...opic=1933&st=30 seems like difference between Ranchu and Lionhead is curvature of back/body? what's the difference between Lionchu and Ranchu - is it the shape of the wens pls??

and does your following first photo show a Lionhead but not a Lionchu pls? second photo is a Ranchu?

QUOTE(The Matrix @ Fri, 07 Jan 2005 5:27 pm)
看得出嗎?該是一目了然。

一品級皇族獅頭


一流的蘭疇

*



lastly, are CP's and Desireless' previous avatars that of a Ranchu or Lionhead pls? and which category would a Lionhead be placed pls?

ps and difference between a Lionchu and Lionhead is curvature of body, ie Lionchu has Ranchu body/back pls?
CP
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:24 am)
  what's the difference between Lionchu and Ranchu - is it the shape of the wens pls??
*


Try this thread:
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...topic=1933&st=0
The Matrix
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:24 am)
Thanks Matrix,

from this thread http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...opic=1933&st=30 seems like difference between Ranchu and Lionhead is curvature of back/body?  what's the difference between Lionchu and Ranchu - is it the shape of the wens pls??

and does your following first photo show a Lionhead but not a Lionchu pls? second photo is a Ranchu?


If you are talking about a traditional chinese lionhead, it is a totally different variety to a ranchu. I believe the back is a major different. However as of today, there is a new variation called the MaoShi which has the head of a lionhead and a body slightly more curve.

Yes, the 1st pic is a beautiful lionhead and the 2nd is a ranchu.

QUOTE
lastly, are CP's and Desireless' previous avatars that of a Ranchu or Lionhead pls?
erh ... can't recall. Can post ?

QUOTE
and which category would a Lionhead be placed pls?
OPEN Class.

QUOTE
ps and difference between a Lionchu and Lionhead is curvature of body, ie Lionchu has Ranchu body/back pls?
*


In the same link you've provided, post#16 .... a good reference.
A lionchu is not lionhead.
gohks
For the Oranda classification, can be any head right (lion, tiger, goose, crown...), as long as there is a dorsal fin unsure.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 1:42 pm)
For the Oranda classification, can be any head right (lion, tiger, goose, crown...), as long as there is a dorsal fin  unsure.gif
*


Yes sir, of course !
namaste
Good to see more competitons are coming up good.gif

I wish the organising team a BIG SUCCESS!

Looking forward to visit the show yes.gif


Desmond Lee
LASERGUY
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:04 pm)
Deformity as in the fish is not within the specification. Let say a ranchu which is supposed to have a short tail but if someone submit a long tail is not within the specificiation then there is a possibility of disqualifying the entry. In fact, that long tail version is known as a egg fish pheonix tail, not a ranchu.

As long as the fish does not has deformed body parts, like damaged mouth, folded gills, missing fins (except single anal fin) etc, it should not be disqualified.
*



Matrix, if the fish has different size anal fin or pelvic fin instead of completely missing, can it be disqualified due to deformity ?
ranchu8
Thanks CP and Matrix

After a search, I had read through the old thread and post #16 and therefore thought that the wens decide whether it is a Ranchu or Lionchu; and after reading links which Desireless had posted guessed that the difference between a Lionchu and Lionhead is in the curvature of the back/body also (ie like Ranchu and traditional Lionhead) but Lionchu and Lionhead share the same wens. Is this correct pls?

Matrix, on post #16 which you pointed out, I believe the bottom left photo was Desireless' fish in his previous avatar. Is CP's present avatar a Lionchu or Ranchu pls (presumably to be decided based on its wens)? Thanks again.

ps for the "Thai Ranchu" which people have been usually labelling, are they Lionchu or Ranchu pls? (I presume not Lionhead cos their back curvature is rather "steep"). Thanks.
Ranchu Lover
This question is just for the purpose of discussion. It seems that in TVR competition, the winner of the Oya class is always the grand champion. Has there been instances where the grand champion is not the winner from the Oya class.

Coming back to this competition. Does that means that a Class A fish will never be a grand champion however good the fish?
CP
Yo Laserguy,
Your current ryukin avatar..........
Got chance ah!! rolleyes.gif
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Me no fish...................weep.gif
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(CP @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:32 pm)
Me no fish...................weep.gif
*


I think it is a question of not having a "sure winner fish". No fish here means you are not keeping any goldfish. I am sure your SVR should be OK. We can never be sure until after the competition. Go for the fun and also to support our local goldfish community. I am planning to send in my $3/- oranda and $2/- pearlscale. My only problem is that they may not reach 10 cm by then.
ranchu8
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:08 pm)
ps for the "Thai Ranchu" which people have been usually labelling, are they Lionchu or Ranchu pls?  (I presume not Lionhead cos their back curvature is rather "steep"). Thanks.
*


ps I mean "Thai SVR" smile.gif
desireless
Please spare The Matrix some peace. The organising committee has decided that should there be any doubt, it should be directed to them instead. RG is by no means supporting for this show. This topic was started simply to announce the coming of this competition. And of course we welcome technical issues/doubts with regards to the comp. I am sure that as part of the organising committee, he will reflect the technical issues to the organising committee. As for judging criteria, method, strictness etc. I believe he can only advised you based on his personal experience. So no point pressing him on how the judges will decide on different situations because he is not in the judging panel.
The Matrix
QUOTE(LASERGUY @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 6:15 pm)
Matrix, if the fish has different size anal fin or pelvic fin instead of completely missing, can it be disqualified due to deformity ?
*


Laser, slight different in fins especially those paired fins are called defects, not deformed. Just like a dragon eyes with unbalanced eyes are classified as defective.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:20 pm)
This question is just for the purpose of discussion. It seems that in TVR competition, the winner of the Oya class is always the grand champion. Has there been instances where the grand champion is not the winner from the Oya class.

Coming back to this competition. Does that means that a Class A fish will never be a grand champion however good the fish?
*


In most competition, the winnings of all biggest category are recognised as winners of the show and the best in all the biggest are the usually classified as the Best in Show. It can be used to recognise the breeder, hobbyist that owns the fish and the amount of effort spend. There are a lot of other factors involved.
The Matrix
QUOTE(desireless @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:51 pm)
Please spare The Matrix some peace. The organising committee has decided that should there be any doubt, it should be directed to them instead. RG is by no means supporting for this show. This topic was started simply to announce the coming of this competition. And of course we welcome technical issues/doubts with regards to the comp. I am sure that as part of the organising committee, he will reflect the technical issues to the organising committee. As for judging criteria, method, strictness etc. I believe he can only advised you based on his personal experience. So no point pressing him on how the judges will decide on different situations because he is not in the judging panel.
*


Hahahaha ... Thanks Desireless. A few questions still can handle. Actually din't mean to use RG as the Q&A session. But guess this is the only place purely support local Goldfish hobbyists. yes.gif

Actually these questions are good. But I sweat over Lawrence's one. biggrin.gif

For many participants who have doubts, it will be best to mail the club's email as this will serve as official reply. Especially for those who has trouble looking at the different in Lionchu and Ranchu.
The Matrix
therefore thought that the wens decide whether it is a Ranchu or Lionchu -> Correct

the difference between a Lionchu and Lionhead is in the curvature of the back/body -> Correct

but Lionchu and Lionhead share the same wens -> not necessary. Take a look at pic posted somewhere above, that's a TungHoi lionhead and the wen is uniquely different from a lionchu or ranchu. A lionchu has a more jelly like wen, fluffy and not as firm.

QUOTE
Matrix, on post #16 which you pointed out, I believe the bottom left photo was Desireless' fish in his previous avatar.  Is CP's present avatar a Lionchu or Ranchu pls (presumably to be decided based on its wens)?  Thanks again.

In post #16 in that link, the 1st fish is a ranchu. 2nd photo with 2 fishes are lionchu. CP avatar should be a ranchu. See any difference now ?

QUOTE
ps for the "Thai Ranchu" which people have been usually labelling, are they Lionchu or Ranchu pls?  (I presume not Lionhead cos their back curvature is rather "steep"). Thanks.
*


Can I don't answer this question ? Very sensitive. However, getting from a good reliable source is very important as they will tell u what you are getting and also knowledge in goldfish variations is as important.
ranchu8
wah Matrix, you are power Matrix good_very.gif thank you very much smile.gif fish2.gif

er, hopefully 1 last question: understand that Lionchu and Lionhead do not necessarily have the same type of wens but if they usually do have the same type of wens (?), then photos of just their heads may not show whether they are Lionchu or Lionhead? I suppose in Singapore there are not many Lionhead available? More Lionchu compared to Lionhead, but Ranchu the most, of these 3 types? Thanks smile.gif
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 1:15 am)
wah Matrix, you are power Matrix good_very.gif thank you very much  smile.gif  fish2.gif

er, hopefully 1 last question: understand that Lionchu and Lionhead do not necessarily have the same type of wens but if they usually do have the same type of wens (?), then photos of just their heads may not show whether they are Lionchu or Lionhead? I suppose in Singapore there are not many Lionhead available? More Lionchu compared to Lionhead, but Ranchu the most, of these 3 types? Thanks smile.gif
*


I also agree Matrix is power here. On the issue of getting lionhead in Singapore, it is a question of supply and demand. 19 out of 20 are looking for ranchu. You think LFS wants to import them when there is low demand for them. There are places in Singapore where you can find lionhead. Its the quality that is the issue.
namaste
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:20 pm)
.....
Coming back to this competition. Does that means that a Class A fish will never be a grand champion however good the fish?
*


QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:11 am)
In most competition, the winnings of all biggest category are recognised as winners of the show and the best in all the biggest are the usually classified as the Best in Show. It can be used to recognise the breeder, hobbyist that owns the fish and the amount of effort spend. There are a lot of other factors involved.
*


hello,

I wish to contribution what I understand about TVR Grand Champ.
In most competition, Oya will have the least number of the participation.
This is because it is very difficult to keep and maintain to become an Oya.
That is why the winning Oya deserved the Best in Show award.

Regards
Desmond Lee
The Matrix
QUOTE(ranchu8 @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 1:15 am)
wah Matrix, you are power Matrix good_very.gif thank you very much  smile.gif  fish2.gif

er, hopefully 1 last question: understand that Lionchu and Lionhead do not necessarily have the same type of wens but if they usually do have the same type of wens (?), then photos of just their heads may not show whether they are Lionchu or Lionhead? I suppose in Singapore there are not many Lionhead available? More Lionchu compared to Lionhead, but Ranchu the most, of these 3 types? Thanks smile.gif
*


The variation of wen depends on the breeders and what they wanted to achieve. Like Lionchu, this variety has big head and ranchu like body. There is a chance that the lionchu has a lionhead type of wen. Hmmm ... do you notice that the Black Ranchu actually have different wen from the rest of the ranchu ? Interesting right ? Check that out. But let's not go into so detail.

To my understanding, there are many hobbyists love this lionchu. I've spoken to many and they rather buy a lionchu than a ranchu. But of course, they are also quite a large demand for ranchu. In fact, there are also many lionhead imported from China. But the problem is that hobbyists might consider their straighter back a deformed ranchu but they are not.

I can't really know which type got more. I dun work in the "fish" immigration dept leh. hahaha. joking.

A photo of the head should be good enough. Of course, that is assuming that the body is of a ranchu.
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:39 am)

In post #16 in that link, the 1st fish is a ranchu. 2nd photo with 2 fishes are lionchu. CP avatar should be a ranchu. See any difference now ?
*


unsure.gif Matrix,
Could you comment on GA113, is it a Ranchu or Lionchu? According to your definition (A lionchu has a more jelly like wen, fluffy and not as firm.), I think is a Ranchu but lot of people think otherwise. hi.gif
Also, can we get Ranchu and Lionchu in a same spawn? unsure.gif

Is it possible to elaborate and define more on defectivity vs deformity, think is not very clear line drawn (e.g, a missing anal fins is a defect or deform?). smile.gif
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(gohks @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:56 am)
unsure.gif Matrix,
Could you comment on GA113, is it a Ranchu or Lionchu?  According to your definition (A lionchu has a more jelly like wen, fluffy and not as firm.), I think is a Ranchu but lot of people think otherwise. hi.gif
Also, can we get Ranchu and Lionchu in a same spawn?  unsure.gif

Is it possible to elaborate and define more on defectivity vs deformity, think is not very clear line drawn (e.g, a missing anal fins is a defect or deform?). smile.gif
*


Maybe it is like saying all blonde are caucasian.
CyberET
if i'm not wrong, GA113 should be a Lionchu, and i don't think we can get ranchu and lionchu in a same spawn.

totally missing anal fin is deform, uneven anal fins is defect.
Nic
QUOTE(CyberET @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:22 pm)
if i'm not wrong, GA113 should be a Lionchu, and i don't think we can get ranchu and lionchu in a same spawn.

totally missing anal fin is deform, uneven anal fins is defect.
*



Like broken tail or staple tail = defect and no tail = deform,
blind fish = defect and no eye = deform. tongue.gif
Ranchu Lover
What class should I enter if my black ranchu has its belly turning golden?
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:56 am)
unsure.gif Matrix,
Could you comment on GA113, is it a Ranchu or Lionchu?  According to your definition (A lionchu has a more jelly like wen, fluffy and not as firm.), I think is a Ranchu but lot of people think otherwise. hi.gif
Also, can we get Ranchu and Lionchu in a same spawn?  unsure.gif

Is it possible to elaborate and define more on defectivity vs deformity, think is not very clear line drawn (e.g, a missing anal fins is a defect or deform?). smile.gif
*


This is not the official reply ok. The picture is not clear so I can only guess. Only if a very clear pic is shown.

The fish is a lionchu.

As for spawning, I do not have the answer.

Ok ... I try to make it simple.

A Goldfish has a mouth, 2 eyes, 4 paired fins, 1 dorsal fin (except Dan-Zhong, egg-fish variety). If any of these missing or incomplete growth is consider deformed. However, in most show, a single anal fin is consider a defect.

If all the 12 features are there, only maybe a slight big/small in size, crooked, damaged, blind, that's a defect only.

Other than this 12 features will be the head and body. Seldom u see a head deform. The main problem will be defective gill plates like curling, torn, broken etc.

The body defects can be a few like missing scales and dis-coloration. But deformed body is obvious like curled spine.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 3:10 pm)
What class should I enter if my black ranchu has its belly turning golden?
*



Black.
goldrush
So by looking at its head my Thai TVR reject becomes a Lionchu ????? biggrin.gif
see below



Why not let the organising committee reclassify the entry rather than disqualify the contestant.Seems abit harsh on potential participant who may unintentionally classify an entry and then kenna jiak $15.00!!!!!!!! laugh.gif


IPB Image

IPB Image
The Matrix
QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 8:15 pm)
So by looking at its head my Thai TVR reject becomes a Lionchu ????? biggrin.gif
see below
Why not let the organising committee reclassify the entry rather than disqualify the contestant.Seems abit harsh on potential participant who may unintentionally classify an entry and then kenna jiak $15.00!!!!!!!! laugh.gif
*



It is the responsibility of the participants to submit the fish in the correct category and classification. The participants will bench in the fish according to the confirmed entry label issued in the later date.

The organisers will not, in any manner, interfere with the participant's final decision only if Clause #6 Statement #2 has been applied for any disputes prior to submitting the entry.

The posting above is only an indication and not official. I will relook at the picture again. To obtain an official reply, please send a clear digitized photo to the email.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Tue, 11 Apr 2006 8:55 pm)
To obtain an official reply, please send a clear digitized photo to the email.
*


Sorry if I may sound too "long winded". What will happen if a participant after getting an official reply and rely on it and the judges feel otherwise.
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