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void
Dear all green water users...

When to tell whether the green water is too green and need to be change? I've read somewhere that too much green means it contain too many protein which is bad for the lungs or something like that... is this true? thanks...
Allan
A good rule of thumb is change the green water after one week. From there you can learn from your own experience how intensely green it should get before you need to change it. Lately with the cloudy weather, I am changing once a week while previously I need to change once every five days.

As a guide, you can select the "RafflesGold Intense Green" skin and look at the background colour; the dark green is about how green it should be. Heh.
cktan
I just changed my green water tonight and notice some red streaks on 2 out of 3 of the goldfish tail fins. True enough the ammonia in the water measured 0.5mg/l.

There is only three 2 inch goldfish in the 3ft guppy tub filled with 130 liters of water. Light is MH (4200Lum) and switch on for 11 hours (7.30am - 6.30pm). Feeding is 4 times a day (only 1 click on the food timer each time) and all feeds done before 12 noon. Water changes 90% every week.

The water is usually intense green on the 6 and 7 day. Any idea why ammonia can be present despite no overloading nor overfeeding. I will be going for a overseas trip for 10 days and wonder what might happen if i dont change water for 10 days. 7 days i already see 0.5mg/l of ammonia and intense green water. Wah, 10 days really cannot imagine what might happen. Any suggestions to tackle this problem?
desireless
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:07 am)
I just changed my green water tonight and notice some red streaks on 2 out of 3 of the goldfish tail fins. True enough the ammonia in the water measured 0.5mg/l.

*

You need to know that green water algae is also a type of plant. It will tend to compete DO with goldfish when there is no light (at night). And like plants, algae produces Carbon Dioxide at night. . This is why air stones are needed to ensure enough DO in green water at all time. The algae will also do nothing to the waste produced by your fishes in the absence of light too

Yo Void, long time no see... smile.gif
I supposed you mean "too much oxygen" when it is too green. It will cause oxygen burn. I must admit I have never seen what oxygen burn is. blush.gif

You can go to a poll started by HB quite some time back to read more on the green intensity.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:07 am)
I just changed my green water tonight and notice some red streaks on 2 out of 3 of the goldfish tail fins. True enough the ammonia in the water measured 0.5mg/l.

There is only three 2 inch goldfish in the 3ft guppy tub filled with 130 liters of water. Light is MH (4200Lum) and switch on for 11 hours (7.30am - 6.30pm). Feeding is 4 times a day (only 1 click on the food timer each time) and all feeds done before 12 noon. Water changes 90% every week.

The water is usually intense green on the 6 and 7 day. Any idea why ammonia can be present despite no overloading nor overfeeding.  I will be going for a overseas trip for 10 days and wonder what might happen if i dont change water for 10 days. 7 days i already see 0.5mg/l of ammonia and intense green water. Wah, 10 days really cannot imagine what might happen. Any suggestions to tackle this problem?
*

Although some bros claim it's okay to use a bulb with a color temperature of less than 6500 Kelvin, I suggest you change yours to day light. 4,200 lum (I presume that's 4,200 Kelvin) is nothing like natural day light. We are not looking for brightness (defined by the output wattage of the bulb) but an emulation of day light, ie, whiteness of 6,500 kelvin. To comprehend this, many bros are cultivating green water with (not very bright) 36 watts PL lamp because the PL lamp is of the correct colour temperature 6,500 kelvin. Your setup's environment thus is not ideal to promote algae's growth due to the wrong type of lighting. You thus is recording a high ammonia level and water turning green only on the 6th and 7th day onwards. As you can see, the long hours doesn't help.

Hope that helps.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(desireless @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 2:08 am)
Yo Void, long time no see...  smile.gif
I supposed you mean "too much oxygen" when it is too green. It will cause oxygen burn. I must admit I have never seen what oxygen burn is.  blush.gif
*

Kekeke. Maybe you have mistaken bro void "coming back"; this is an old topic started in Feb. Anyway, bro void is around but a change in his work schedule means having less time for him to login.
mrchoco
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:07 am)
I just changed my green water tonight and notice some red streaks on 2 out of 3 of the goldfish tail fins. True enough the ammonia in the water measured 0.5mg/l.

There is only three 2 inch goldfish in the 3ft guppy tub filled with 130 liters of water. Light is MH (4200Lum) and switch on for 11 hours (7.30am - 6.30pm). Feeding is 4 times a day (only 1 click on the food timer each time) and all feeds done before 12 noon. Water changes 90% every week.

The water is usually intense green on the 6 and 7 day. Any idea why ammonia can be present despite no overloading nor overfeeding.  I will be going for a overseas trip for 10 days and wonder what might happen if i dont change water for 10 days. 7 days i already see 0.5mg/l of ammonia and intense green water. Wah, 10 days really cannot imagine what might happen. Any suggestions to tackle this problem?
*



Anyway fish release ammonia through their gills and they also urine. yes they do just that we cannot see it.
mountain
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:07 am)
The water is usually intense green on the 6 and 7 day. Any idea why ammonia can be present despite no overloading nor overfeeding.  I will be going for a overseas trip for 10 days and wonder what might happen if i dont change water for 10 days. 7 days i already see 0.5mg/l of ammonia and intense green water. Wah, 10 days really cannot imagine what might happen. Any suggestions to tackle this problem?
*



Since leaving greeen water on for 10 days while away poses considerable risk to you, why not consider leaving your fish in blue water for 10 days?? We have folks here who left the fish home for more then 13 days...
goldie
Hi, I'm new here. Since u guys talk about oxygen burn. May I ask if one of the fish has this, what remedy to cure it?

Thanks.
Allan
QUOTE(goldie @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 9:13 am)
Hi, I'm new here. Since u guys talk about oxygen burn. May I ask if one of the fish has this, what remedy to cure it?

Thanks.
*

Discard the excessively intense green water and make sure it doesn't happen again. Meanwhile, there's no need to apply medication (if that's what was on your mind) as the fish will heal itself.
goldie
Thanks and duly noted.
cktan
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 6:26 am)
Although some bros claim it's okay to use a bulb with a color temperature of less than 6500 Kelvin, I suggest you change yours to day light.  4,200 lum (I presume that's 4,200 Kelvin) is nothing like natural day light.    We are not looking for brightness (defined by the output wattage of the bulb) but an emulation of day light, ie, whiteness of 6,500 kelvin.  To comprehend this, many bros are cultivating green water with (not very bright) 36 watts PL lamp because the PL lamp is of the correct colour temperature 6,500 kelvin.  Your setup's environment thus is not ideal to promote algae's growth due to the wrong type of lighting.  You thus is recording a high ammonia level and water turning green only on the 6th and 7th day onwards.  As you can see, the long hours doesn't help. 

Hope that helps.
*


HB, i bought the OSRAM double ended MH light bulb on recommendation by Alvin. He himself is using that bulb in his home. I think he misunderstood that the bulb is a 6500K until i told me as what the seller relate to me.

The water turns intense green on the 6 or 7th day. Not green but intense green. It usually turns green on the 2nd or 3rd day after a water change.
cktan
QUOTE(mrchoco @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 8:11 am)
Anyway fish release ammonia through their gills and they also urine. yes they do just that we cannot see it.
*


I understand that. goldfish produce ammonia 24/7 and even till the day they died. Problem is without overfeeding or overloading the tub, the green water is still unable to effectively lower or remove the ammonia. 0.5mg/l is quite high and can be damaging to fish over the long term if PH is > 7.5

The red streaks on the goldfish tail is evident of high enough ammonia.
cktan
QUOTE(mountain @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 9:08 am)
Since leaving greeen water on for 10 days while away poses considerable risk to you, why not consider leaving your fish in blue water for 10 days?? We have folks here who left the fish home for more then 13 days...
*


What is blue water? Are u refering to adding medication to the water or normal clear tap water?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:17 am)
HB, i bought the OSRAM double ended MH light bulb on recommendation by Alvin. He himself is using that bulb in his home. I think he misunderstood that the bulb is a 6500K until i told me as what the seller relate to me.

The water turns intense green on the 6 or 7th day. Not green but intense green. It usually turns green on the 2nd or 3rd day after a water change.
*

Sorry I'm a bit lost over what was your question, so I re-read it.

Okay... firstly 0.5mg/l of ammonia in green water is not an alarming level. Goldfish is hardy (despite what some bros have written about their fishes). Fact is algae does not take in ammonia when there's no light. Fortunately green water still works for goldfish because when there's no light our fish go to a less active state and hence produces less ammonia. It implies it's quite a disaster if you keep your green water tub in the living room where there's enough light to keep the fishes awake yet not enough to get the algae to do their work. biggrin.gif

Pleas re-run your test during the day and you will probably get a different reading. Don't forget to test the pH level as ammonia is lethal at pH> 7.5 (there's a FAQ on this) while green water's pH usually hoovers above 8 and close to 9! But do you see any problem with anyone's fishes in green water? I'm trying to say your test was flawed. Also... if you test intense green water, do use the JBL's pH kit mentioned elsewhere.
mrchoco
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:28 am)
I understand that. goldfish produce ammonia 24/7 and even till the day they died. Problem is without overfeeding or overloading the tub, the green water is still unable to effectively lower or remove the ammonia. 0.5mg/l is quite high and can be damaging to fish over the long term if PH is > 7.5

The red streaks on the goldfish tail is evident of high enough ammonia.
*


your algae will die ---> ammonia
your fish will feed on the algae
the fish will shit after eating the algae ---> ammonia
cktan
QUOTE(mrchoco @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 1:13 pm)
your algae will die ---> ammonia
your fish will feed on the algae
the fish will shit after eating the algae ---> ammonia
*


Hmm, i think i got yr point. The water intense green means too much suspended algae. Some died adding onto the ammonia effect. Lots of green algae also mean goldfish got opportunity to eat them especially at nite.

I do notice that the goldfish color improvement peak when the water is intense green. Since lots of algae for them to eat. Previously i perform water changes once every 5 days or when the water turns too green. The water never really have a chance to turn intense green. goldfish color did improve. Now, i do once every week and hack care of the water turning too green. One of the goldfish color improve alot when i hack care and let the water turn intense green. Maybe its just a coincidence... but i got a feeling the further color improvement is due to goldfish in the intense green water.
mountain
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:29 am)
What is blue water? Are u refering to adding medication to the water or normal clear tap water?
*


sorry, normal tap water
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(cktan @ Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:29 am)
What is blue water? Are u refering to adding medication to the water or normal clear tap water?
*

Kekekek.

Blue water is dechlorinated tap water.

Some of us adopted the Japanese way to describe dechlorinated tap water as "blue water". If we say we use tap water, then some newbies might think it's okay to use water straight from the tap without applying anti-chlorine. So blue water helps to distinguish it somewhat (if you know what we're talking about. kekekeke.)

In this light... if you happens to read a bro keeping his ranchus in a boat, don't rush out to the harbour looking for it! What we called a Tub is a Boat to the Japanese.
cktan
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Thu, 07 Oct 2004 3:48 pm)
Kekekek.

Blue water is dechlorinated tap water.

Some of us adopted the Japanese way to describe dechlorinated tap water as "blue water".  If we say we use tap water, then some newbies might think it's okay to use water straight from the tap without applying anti-chlorine.  So blue water helps to distinguish it somewhat (if you know what we're talking about. kekekeke.)

In this light... if you happens to read a bro keeping his ranchus in a boat, don't rush out to the harbour looking for it!  What we called a Tub is a Boat to the Japanese.
*


Hmm, i wonder why the Jap described them as blue. Could be its because of their very poor english. My first impression of blue water is sea water.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(cktan @ Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:45 pm)
Hmm, i wonder why the Jap described them as blue. Could be its because of their very poor english. My first impression of blue water is sea water.
*

Actually we got the "blue water" from on-line translation of japanese text. The way on-line translation is, the Japanese may not actually meant it as "blue" at all.

Grin. Luckily ocean water looks blue to you; my impression is it's dark green.
cktan
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Fri, 08 Oct 2004 6:13 am)
Actually we got the "blue water" from on-line translation of japanese text.  The way on-line translation is, the Japanese may not actually meant it as "blue" at all.
*


I bet that online Jap translation s/w is done by Jap themselves tongue.gif
GoldfisHub
Hi HappyBuddha,

Some questions, hope you can enlighten me...
1. Since green water is free of ammonia and nitrate (that's what I understand), why do we need to change the water weekly?
2. Can we introduce smaller filter to prolong the water changing frequency?

Jst curious. Hope you can help.
ranchu8
green water is not completely free of ammonia and nitrate; need to change when green water is too intense cos of too much oxygen which is not favourable for fish. Risk of small filter is beneficial bacteria - which will compete with algae.
bekko
Also, the individual single cell algae in green water do not live very long. They are constantly dividing and constantly dying. When they die, they are decomposed by bacteria and most of the stored nitrogen is released back into the water as ammonia.

A green water culture is said to have a "lag phase", a "log phase", a "stationary phase" and a "death phase". Here is a graph from the web:
http://sunny.crk.umn.edu/courses/biolknut/...cro2/sld010.htm

One of the purposes of the water change is to keep the algae growth in the log phase where the number of cells is increasing rapidly. Since the rate of cell division is much greater than the rate of cell death in log phase (as evidenced by the rapid increase in cell numbers), the rate of nitrogen uptake is also at its peak. The amount of water kept from the previous week keeps you from having to wait through the lag phase every time water is exchanged. In the stationary phase, the cells are dying at the same rate they are dividing and there is no net uptake of nitrogen from the water. In the death phase, everything is going to hell quickly and all that stored nitrogen is being released back to the water.

Hope this helps,
-steve h
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