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square_guy
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:34 pm)
Now you know what I mean by "secret weapon". If I show you, then it no more becomes secret right? The trick is in the grooming. Patience my friend.
You mean the one you can only see the back side?

Will post the same fish after some time again.
*



Ranchu Lover,

I have seen you mentioning grooming many a times on AF and RG. RG forummers have been rather open with their grooming techniques, so I think it is about time you share with the everyone your planned grooming practices too. I am sure it will be beneficial to have a two-way knowledge sharing.
The Matrix
people very secretive lah ... In RG, the purpose is to elevate the fish keeper knowledge by sharing the best practises and techniques. The good example is the dear RG Doc who has written so many articles on fish medication and treatment.

So it would be best to take the secret things out of this forum and dun even mention it if there is no intention to share.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 4:47 pm)
people very secretive lah ... In RG, the purpose is to elevate the fish keeper knowledge by sharing the best practises and techniques. The good example is the dear RG Doc who has written so many articles on fish medication and treatment.

So it would be best to take the secret things out of this forum and dun even mention it if there is no intention to share.
*


Don't like that say lah! I only started keeping goldfish seriously only about 2 years ago. Before that only rely on one 2 ft tank to keep all my goldfish. Now I only have 2 three feet and 2 two feet blue tubs to keep all my goldfish. Only recently(end of last year) add one 2 feet glass tank to my collection since started keeping Fancy goldfish.

Still learning. Sorry if I use the wrong word "grooming". This word "grooming" I learn from one of the goldfish club. I thought it is the appropriate word to use.

My technique still not properly tried and tested yet.

On the subject of "secret weapon". Sorry to have caused confusion and in some instances anger amongst members. I am just trying to add some humour/joke into the forum.
square_guy
Err, I don't think anyone is blaming you for using the word "grooming" at all, so there's no need for apologies. It is the correct word after all.

I am just curious to know more about your plan for all these new tikus. Eg. Water volume, feeding schedule, food, green or filtered water...
gohks
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 6:07 pm)
Don't like that say lah! I only started keeping goldfish seriously only about 2 years ago. Before that only rely on one 2 ft tank to keep all my goldfish. Now I only have 2 three feet and 2 two feet blue tubs to keep all my goldfish. Only recently(end of last year) add one 2 feet glass tank to my collection since started keeping Fancy goldfish.

My technique still not properly tried and tested yet.

On the subject of "secret weapon". Sorry to have caused confusion and in some instances anger amongst members. I am just trying to add some humour/joke into the forum.
*


It's okay, no need to be humble as all of us know your secret "secret weapon". laugh.gif Also, frankly I like your sense of humour and do keep the jokes coming/flowing yes.gif
BTW, think is time you change your nick to something more relevant ;)
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(gohks @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 8:49 pm)
It's okay, no need to be humble as all of us know your secret "secret weapon".   laugh.gif Also, frankly I like your sense of humour and do keep the jokes coming/flowing  yes.gif
BTW, think is time you change your nick to something more relevant   ;)
*


Can change nick meh?
OK!, I share little of my "grooming" style for my goldfish. Please follow with caution as I will not be responsible for any fatality that may occur as a result.

These are some of the do and don't in my goldfish keeping.

1. I keep all my goldfish together regardless of size or variety.
2. I use OHF
3. I feed my fish many many times a day.
4. I age my water.
5. I use coral chip in my filter.
6. I use auto-feeder.
7. I love to see my fish in crystal clear water.
8. I give my fish plenty of sunlight.
9. I love to visit LFS whenever I pass by one and have the time.
10. I love to "lim kopi" with people who keeps goldfish. (and love modifying cars)
11. I like to test out new products and new ways of doing things.
12. I believe that there will always be people better than me even though I try to be the best that I can be.
13. I use "hypo".
14. I love to buy fish when they are young.
15. I love to breed goldfish but,
16. I don't have the time to do so.
17. I don't use green water.
18. I don't change water but,
19. I use a flushing system.
20. I don't use expensive fish food. I use only "Hikari".
21. I use frozen feed like bloodworm, brine shrimp and daphnia.
22. I believe that there is no such a thing as a perfect fish.

Hope this can clear some of the "stale air".

I am attaching a picture of the big brother with its younger cousins. All the fish are kept in my 2 ft glass tank with a humble OHF with no aeration. It will stay this way for many months to come.

IPB Image
CyberET
har? don't change water, but use a flushing system? what talking you?
when i flush my toilet bowl, the water turn from brown to clear wor, can consider almost 100% change, so u change 100% is it? or u talking in car terms? flush the radiator with lots of water also change almost 100% wor..

feed many many times a day? how many times is many?
The Matrix
U dun change water personally, but using a method called "flush" ... constant fresh water in-flow ? What's the flow rate and how do you make use of the outflow water, or rather recycling process ? How about a look at this secret setup ?

I have heard of some discus breeders utilise such method to refresh water for the frys but never have a chance to see it. Even when I breeding discus, i have to change 90% water 2x a day and water bill already cannot tahan.
desireless
How come the fishes just arrived in less than one week and you've started mixing them with your old fish already?
Do you know last time the SARS epidemic started in a lift where the first carrier sneezed? prayer.gif

How you handle your (new) fishes is also part of grooming. Perhaps it's time you relook into your method and objectives.
The Matrix
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:04 pm)
4.  I age my water.
13. I use "hypo".
18. I don't change water but,

2 ft glass tank with a humble OHF with no aeration.
*


How did u age water ?

When will u use hypo ? On aging water or in the 2ft tank ?
U dun change water but how does the system change periodically ?

When you said no aeration, does that mean that there is no visible sign of any bubble creation in your tank that would possibly result in oxygen dissolving in your tank ?

OR does that OHF create the aeration which you might have mistakenly thought that there is no aeration in your setup ?
goldrush
Once I had a secret love
That lived within the heart of me
All too soon my secret love
Became impatient to be free……
………………………………..
………………………………..

…………………………………….

At last my heart's an open door
And my secret love's no secret anymore

Secret love(Doris Day)


I would imagine RL serenading us with the above classic song pertaining to his fish keeping
Perhaps RL has finally opened his secret door to us, sharing his experience of success in grooming, keeping and winning at every competition Give him a chance to render us with his original and proven rendition and let us not close the door upon something new, something that sounds bizarre and perhaps something out of the ordinary.



Shhhhhhhhhhhhh secret squirrel
chochiss
sometimes...bizzare can be the best option in keeping fishes that have beautiful outcome. Have you seen people kept gfs out in the sun without any aeration?

flushing system? over here...there's a fish distributor in which their boss's hse have this power water system that works like a damn river flow. 24/7 got fresh de-clorinated water for his fishes ponds!!! can imagine the water bill???
gohks
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:04 pm)

1.  I keep all my goldfish together regardless of size or variety.
2.  I use OHF
3.  I feed my fish many many times a day.
4.  I age my water.
5.  I use coral chip in my filter.
6.  I use auto-feeder.
7.  I love to see my fish in crystal clear water.
8.  I give my fish plenty of sunlight.
9.  I love to visit LFS whenever I pass by one and have the time.
10. I love to "lim kopi" with people who keeps goldfish. (and love modifying cars)
11. I like to test out new products and new ways of doing things.
12. I believe that there will always be people better than me even though I try to be the best that I can be.
13. I use "hypo".
14. I love to buy fish when they are young.
15. I love to breed goldfish but,
16. I don't have the time to do so.
17. I don't use green water.
18. I don't change water but,
19. I use a flushing system.
  unsure.gif
20. I don't use expensive fish food. I use only "Hikari".
21. I use frozen feed like bloodworm, brine shrimp and daphnia.
22. I believe that there is no such a thing as a perfect fish.


I am attaching a picture of the big brother with its younger cousins. All the fish are kept in my 2 ft glass tank with a humble OHF with no aeration. It will stay this way for many months to come.


*


Thks for sharing. Realized I also share the above same attributes biggrin.gif
How come you mix a D cup among the A cups, what sort of enhancement or implantation you use laugh.gif
Hope you can reveal your secret2.gif gunsmilie.gif soon, particularly on your setup. Don't keep everybody in suspense hi.gif
square_guy
I am rather disappointed that you do seem to be inclined towards a serious discussion. There quite a few contradictory things you have mentioned, and does not quite befit someone with multiple medals from the recent goldfish show. Why do I get a niggling feeling that you are treating the people here for fools? sad.gif

I believe you are well aware that this is a very serious goldfish keeping forum, and I myself would really prefer to have a proper and not just frivolous discussion.

Things you have missed out are
1. Feed timing. Not just "many many times a day"!
2. Aged water? And you used hypo? What's your rationale?
3. Why do you keep all your goldfish together irregardless of size and variety? I see that at least you keep ALL tikus together. But where are the rest of the 100? Culled already? All in a 2ft tank? On what scientific grounds do you think this is beneficial? Are you going you mix your prize-winners with these tikus as well? Are you kidding me again?
4. How did you ever maintained your water condition if there is so much overcrowding? How did you overcome the problem of nitrate poisoning?
5. Did you test the water paramenter when you introduce such a huge bioload into you available water volume? How did you make sure your filter system is up to the job?
5. AFAIK, flushing and changing water is the SAME thing. How do you administer hypo in the right amount in such a variable system? Do you use dechlorinated water for your WC?




QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:04 pm)
Can change nick meh?
OK!, I share little of my "grooming" style for my goldfish. Please follow with caution as I will not be responsible for any fatality that may occur as a result.

These are some of the do and don't in my goldfish keeping.

1.  I keep all my goldfish together regardless of size or variety.
2.  I use OHF
3.  I feed my fish many many times a day.
4.  I age my water.
5.  I use coral chip in my filter.
6.  I use auto-feeder.
7.  I love to see my fish in crystal clear water.
8.  I give my fish plenty of sunlight.
9.  I love to visit LFS whenever I pass by one and have the time.
10. I love to "lim kopi" with people who keeps goldfish. (and love modifying cars)
11. I like to test out new products and new ways of doing things.
12. I believe that there will always be people better than me even though I try to be the best that I can be.
13. I use "hypo".
14. I love to buy fish when they are young.
15. I love to breed goldfish but,
16. I don't have the time to do so.
17. I don't use green water.
18. I don't change water but,
19. I use a flushing system.
20. I don't use expensive fish food. I use only "Hikari".
21. I use frozen feed like bloodworm, brine shrimp and daphnia.
22. I believe that there is no such a thing as a perfect fish.

Hope this can clear some of the "stale air".

I am attaching a picture of the big brother with its younger cousins. All the fish are kept in my 2 ft glass tank with a humble OHF with no aeration. It will stay this way for many months to come.


*

desireless
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:04 pm)
....
Please follow with caution as I will not be responsible for any fatality that may occur as a result.
..
*


After reading through your list carefully, you don't worry have to about that biggrin.gif

BTW, some points for clarification:

4. I age my water.
13. I use "hypo".


Age for how long before use? You age your water or use hypo? Or you age first then use hypo? Or use hypo then age the water? Usually, it is either only 4. or 13. .


18. I don't change water but,
19. I use a flushing system.


Really don't know what this is, please elaborate
gohks
QUOTE(goldrush @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:28 pm)
Once I had a secret love
That lived within the heart of me
All too soon my secret love
Became impatient to be free……
………………………………..
………………………………..

…………………………………….

At last my heart's an open door
And my secret love's no secret anymore

Secret love(Doris Day)


I would imagine RL serenading us with the above classic song pertaining to his fish keeping
Perhaps RL has finally opened his secret door to us, sharing his experience of success in grooming, keeping and winning at every competition Give him a chance to render us with his original and proven rendition and let us not close the door upon something new, something that sounds bizarre and perhaps something out of the ordinary.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh secret squirrel
*


Agreed with doc. We are here to learn and share and the best way to acquire knowledge is to listen. If we always think our way is the "Best Known Method" and keep our door close, we will never improve. Moreover, there is nothing more to discuss about the conventional method and the only thing interesting to keep this forum discussion ongoing is something unorthodox "out of the box" discussion.
RL's way of grooming is interesting and I think we should give him a chance to explain before we shut him off. He may be stating facts or just fooling us, but he already provide a caveat upfront. All of us are mature and experience enough to judge whether he is serious or just BS with ill intention, and whether we will follow or try his method is also our sole decision.
Read his do's and don't again carefully and you will find the linkage between his personality/spirit and what he is doing. He may not be elaborative enough at the moment but do give him a chance to elaborate. smile.gif
desireless
QUOTE(gohks @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 8:10 pm)
....
RL's way of grooming is interesting and I think we should give him a chance to explain before we shut him off. He may be stating facts or just fooling us, but he already provide a caveat upfront.  All of us are mature and experience enough to judge whether he is serious or just BS with ill intention, and whether we will follow or try his method is also our sole decision.
....
*


Halo Goh, I am surprised that you have misinterpreted the course of discussion.

If RL's posts are nothing more than a prank, it would have been deleted by moderators long ago. But because this is an interesting discussion, it was made a standalone topic. Unorthodox method is one thing, but if some things look questionable, it ought to be pointed out for elaboration.

Let's say something is incorrect. Someone spots it and ignores it. A newbie comes in to read about it, may be MISLED into believing that it is correct, because nobody says it is wrong. I hope you know what I mean. Apart from moderators, the more experienced members are also watch-guards against wrong practises and transmission of untrue information.

I see all the replies here as queries over his do's and don'ts. You mean there are posts which seem to you as shutting someone off? Please point out those posts and let me know. It shocks me a lot that someone has misunderstood this way.

QUOTE(gohks @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 8:10 pm)
....
Read his do's and don't again carefully and you will find the linkage between his personality/spirit and what he is doing.  He may not be elaborative enough at the moment but do give him a chance to elaborate.  smile.gif
*


Yeah. We are all waiting. yes.gif
Ranchu Lover
Ok now!. Sorry for being quiet for a while. Had a very important job today and cannot afford the time to "lim kopi". Just came home from my job and very "shacked". I will try to answer your doubts as much as I can and maybe you will understand better.

1. I make use of 6 x 15 litres pails to age my water. I normally collect the tap water and drop in 3 crystals of "hypo" per pail. The water are kept for at least 12 hours under the sun. This will ensure that even the chloramine will all disappear. I use about 3 pails of water to flush the system. I have an over flow system that traps protein and will flush off the protein every time I top up the water in my system. I use a blue water scoope (the one use for bathing) to overflow the system everytime I visit my fish which will always happen in the morning and evening. In days where I have time to "lim kopi", then it will be more often. One more thing I forget is that I always make it a point to siphon off the "shit" from my tub every time I view my fish. That is a minimum of twice to five times a day.

2. I use an auto feeder (actually I have more than 10 auto feeder, I make use of the extra timing plug)). My auto feeder starts feeding at 5.30 am till 9.30 pm. Feeding interval is every hour. In between, I will feed them frozen bloodworm, brine shrimp and daphnia. That is more than 20 feeding per day.

3. I keep all my selected Tikus in my 2 ft glass tank. Why I did that is because they only cost me $1/- each for the smaller one and $2/- for the winning fish. If got problem, then it is a small investment lost. The rest of the Tikus are all in one of the 3 ft tub (about 60 pieces left). Have been selling them off to a LFS for $0.50 each.

4. I dont use aeration as in air bubbles. I do not deny that the OHF does cause the water to have some aeration.

Please understand that I am still a "beginner" and still learning and experimenting with different methods. My humble apologies for all who find my method bizzare and weird.

Word of caution. This works for me but might not work for someone else. In my 2 years of keeping goldfish, I have lost numerous fish.
CyberET
How does your overflow system trap protein? could you take a picture of the system?
The Matrix
Which means that "I don't change water" is completely not correct. You still siphone water away while clearing up the waste products and during any topping up of water. In such condition, the statement does not stand.

6x15L, or around 90L of water for this tank alone or the rest ? By any chance, do you know how much water you require to top up daily ... let's say on days where u dun have much kopi to lim.

Do you by any chance measure the water parameters of the "aged" water ?

Anyway, the amount of feeding is quite amazing. Do you do that to smaller fish or the same method for the bigger ones ? I would definitely like to see the result of such feeding after 6 mths.

Thanks for answering the queries on your busy schedule.

A pic of the entire setup will be benefical to the people reading the forum.
square_guy
RL,

Excellent! At least now there are more concrete stuff to talk about!

I can't add more to Matrix's or ET's posts; I too am very interested to know how your filtration system work given the humungous amount of feeding! Is it due to the protein trapper (I assume is a protein skimmer in some form)? A pic will speak a thousand words.
Kinder
VERY INTERESTING..........and given the fact you "siphon out the "shit" from the tub every time you view the fish. That is a minimum of twice to five times a day". Which is amazing, im sure you wouldn't mind taking some PICs for us.


PICTURES PLEASE!
gohks
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 9:35 pm)

I see all the replies here as queries over his do's and don'ts. You mean there are posts which seem to you as shutting someone off? Please point out those posts and let me know. It shocks me a lot that someone has misunderstood this way.
Yeah. We are all waiting.  yes.gif
*


desireless
There are posts going to the extend of rubbishing his methods, frivolous and trying to fool all of us, before the contributor even have a chance to explain further (you know what I meant if you ref to previous posts). This sort of situation should be moderated before contributors are discouraged from sharing. Approach of listening first before questioning should be practice. smile.gif
gohks
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:04 pm)
I am attaching a picture of the big brother with its younger cousins. All the fish are kept in my 2 ft glass tank with a humble OHF with no aeration. It will stay this way for many months to come.


*


RL,
How to ensure growth with the many fishes in a 2ft tank uhm.gif . You mean space can be compensated by heavy feeding and flushing. Again, please feel free to share smile.gif
volks
Dear All,
I had just went to Ranchu Lover's house, what he had mentioned in the post is true and amazing fishes he have.
It is very encouraging to see his fishes, probably I am very new to goldfish keeping. But to me , his fishes are very nice and his method of keeping is not the "mainstream" posted in the forum.

Thanks, Ranchu Lover for sharing some skills with me.
The Matrix
QUOTE(volks @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:24 am)
Dear All,
I had just went to Ranchu Lover's house, what he had mentioned in the post is true and amazing fishes he have.
It is very encouraging to see his fishes, probably I am very new to goldfish keeping. But to me , his fishes are very nice and his method of keeping is not the "mainstream" posted in the forum.

Thanks, Ranchu Lover for sharing some skills with me.
*


So do you think you can "duplicate" the same effort ?

Ahhh ... new to keeping already know what is mainstream and not mainstream liao. What a good lesson ... what is mainstream then ?
chochiss
hey RL,

what's the sole purpose of water aging? besides, you've said that your fishes gets lots of sunlight by? seperating protein using OHF? will a protein skimmer work better?
volks
Hi Matrix,
I don't think I can duplicate his effort and not planning to...

Probably, I am wrong ... what I mean "mainstream" is what I had read so far in the forum that most people practice such as heavy volume change each time and within a short period of time.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(CyberET @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:34 am)
How does your overflow system trap protein? could you take a picture of the system?
*


I think on showing a picture of the protein skimmer, I rather not post it in the forum. If you like, you are welcome to visit my home to see it first hand.
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:47 am)
Which means that "I don't change water" is completely not correct. You still siphone water away while clearing up the waste products and during any topping up of water. In such condition, the statement does not stand.

6x15L, or around 90L of water for this tank alone or the rest ? By any chance, do you know how much water you require to top up daily ... let's say on days where u dun have much kopi to lim.

Do you by any chance measure the water parameters of the "aged" water ?

Anyway, the amount of feeding is quite amazing. Do you do that to smaller fish or the same method for the bigger ones ? I would definitely like to see the result of such feeding after 6 mths.

Thanks for answering the queries on your busy schedule.

A pic of the entire setup will be benefical to the people reading the forum.
*


From what I understand from you guys is a 50%, 90% or 100% water change. What I believe in is to keep the water as constant as possible like very small amount of water change. If I have a choice in the future, I would prefer a constant flush of between 3% to 5% water flushing daily.

I use between 30 to 45 litres of "aged" water to flush the system.

All my fish undergo the same feeding schedule. As I have mentioned before from the smallest to the biggest, they are all kept in the same tub.

On the pictures, better visit my home for "kopi".
QUOTE(square_guy @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:00 am)
RL,

Excellent! At least now there are more concrete stuff to talk about!

I can't add more to Matrix's or ET's posts; I too am very interested to know how your filtration system work given the humungous amount of feeding! Is it due to the protein trapper (I assume is a protein skimmer in some form)? A pic will speak a thousand words.
*


My view is that it is very important to rid the system of the discharge from the fish ASAP. Waste from the gills, shit, body slime etc. all needs to be eliminated ASAP.
QUOTE(Kinder @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 9:47 am)
VERY INTERESTING..........and given the fact you "siphon out the "shit" from the tub every time you view the fish. That is a minimum of twice to five times a day". Which is amazing, im sure you wouldn't mind taking some PICs for us.
PICTURES PLEASE!

*


This system is being used extensively in Intensive farming methods. The only problem is that it will also build up the water current which is not suitable for goldfish keeping. Therefore, that is why I use the traditional siphon method.
My personal view is not how many fish in a tank/tub but how good is the water condition. The reason why fish stop growing is because of hormones build-up in the water. Hormones are protein. That is why it is very important to rid the system of protein.
QUOTE(chochiss @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 2:52 pm)
hey RL,

what's the sole purpose of water aging? besides, you've said that your fishes gets lots of sunlight by? seperating protein using OHF? will a protein skimmer work better?
*


In Singapore, the entire water network system will be using chloramine to treat the water. When you use "hypo" what is left in the water is ammonia. By sunning the water, the formation of algae will rid the water of ammonia. That is why the pails that I use for aging water has lots of algae growth on its sides. For those who have visited me will notice that the pails that I use are transparent pails.
desireless
QUOTE(gohks @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:46 am)
desireless
There are posts going to the extend of rubbishing his methods, frivolous and trying to fool all of us, before the contributor even have a chance to explain further (you know what I meant if you ref to previous posts).  This sort of situation should be moderated before contributors are discouraged from sharing.  Approach of listening first before questioning should be practice. smile.gif
*


May I know which ones? Please SPECIFICALLY POINT THEM OUT. I have read this topic 4, 5 times and I cannot spot which post you are talking about. Most posters are seniors members. They have their reasons for making some points. Some may not appear as clear to you as they are to me. Quote the posts. So that the posters can elaborate. Quote them even if they are mine. Don't say "there are some". Point them out so that misunderstanding can be ironed out. At the end of the day, I do not want RG to be labelled as "unfriendly", "arrogant", "double standard", "domineering", etc. I do know some sick-minded characters* saying that to hurt RG's reputation.

Like Matrix said, this is an open forum. But being an open forum, when some misleading or wrong information is disseminated, there'll always be someone experienced enough to spot it and point it out.


====
* Best of all, these 2-3 characters come here everyday. Learn their stuff, use the knowledge learnt here and make themselves heroes at some other forums. And at the same time continue to badmouth about RG. Simply nothing better to do in life.
The Matrix
Go your house see ? U pay my taxi fare thru and fro. Isn't a photo faster in the internet than asking many many people going your house ?

So what's the mainstream you have told many ? Com'on, dun tell me u dun have a digicam hor.

In your own words and understanding, what is Intensive Farming method ? What type of farm you are referring to ?

I never come across TungHoi using such method on their farm as big as AngMo Kio estate ....
Ranchu Lover
I have already qualify myself at the onset that I am still a 'beginner". I also did not use the word mainstream in any of my comments. Two years into the hobby still makes me a beginner.

My apology once again if you find my method of keeping goldfish too bizarre or out of the norm. I believe that there are other better ways than what I have been doing now. That is why I am still experimenting. I also believe that many many more of my fish will suffer as a result of my experiment. You are at liberty to try it out yourself or not. The choice is yours. If a picture speaks a thousand words, then what more seeing with your own eyes and touching it with your own hands.

Why talk about taxi fare if you think you can benefit from coming to see it yourself. Many have come to my home and I believe have not been disappointed with the trip. I am not charging any admission fee.

Do I owe anyone a favour just because I share some of my keeping method?
square_guy
QUOTE(gohks @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:46 am)
desireless
There are posts going to the extend of rubbishing his methods, frivolous and trying to fool all of us, before the contributor even have a chance to explain further (you know what I meant if you ref to previous posts).  This sort of situation should be moderated before contributors are discouraged from sharing.  Approach of listening first before questioning should be practice. smile.gif
*



gohks,

I believe you are referring to me. I am very straight with my posting, one BIG reason for my posting is because RL is telling me "no water change", and immediately on the next sentence he mentioned "flushing with aged water". To me this is BS and he is treating me as an idiot. So specifically, the word "frivolous" is attributable to this point also. If it is a typo mistake on his part, then it is just regrettable.

BUT, I did not rubbish his methods at all. As far as I can seen, no one has rubbished his method either. I am still very interested in a proper discussion (as is happening now).
desireless
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:15 pm)
1. I make use of 6 x 15 litres pails to age my water. I normally collect the tap water and drop in 3 crystals of "hypo" per pail. The water are kept for at least 12 hours under the sun. This will ensure that even the chloramine will all disappear. I use about 3 pails of water to flush the system. I have an over flow system that traps protein and will flush off the protein every time I top up the water in my system. I use a blue water scoope (the one use for bathing) to overflow the system everytime I visit my fish which will always happen in the morning and evening. In days where I have time to "lim kopi", then it will be more often. One more thing I forget is that I always make it a point to siphon off the "shit" from my tub every time I view my fish. That is a minimum of twice to five times a day.
*


Aging of water was adopted in Singapore back in the 1960s-1970s era when our municipal water contained ONLY chlorine. With the introduction of Chloramine, Water Aging practice can no longer stand. So when you say "4. I age my water.", it is understood by every aquarist as, leaving a volume of tap water for 24 hours until the chlorine within disperse, with no chemical added. So the next time you say this again, please do take note of how someone else can misunderstand you.

"13. I use "hypo"." So you use hypo. Yes, this is effective in breaking down Chloramine. But for your info, the reaction of of Chloramine with with hypo (Sodium Thiosulphate) is almost immediate. There's no need for the 12-hour wait.

In your next coffee session, please tell your coffee friend "I use hypo" instead. Water-aging does not include any use of chemical.

QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:15 pm)
2. I use an auto feeder (actually I have more than 10 auto feeder, I make use of the extra timing plug)). My auto feeder starts feeding at 5.30 am till 9.30 pm. Feeding interval is every hour. In between, I will feed them frozen bloodworm, brine shrimp and daphnia. That is more than 20 feeding per day.
*


With this feeding routine, I hope your water management skill is up to it. Refer to Matrix's post.
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:15 pm)
3. I keep all my selected Tikus in my 2 ft glass tank. Why I did that is because they only cost me $1/- each for the smaller one and $2/- for the winning fish. If got problem, then it is a small investment lost. The rest of the Tikus are all in one of the 3 ft tub (about 60 pieces left).  Have been selling them off to a LFS for $0.50 each.
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I have always wondered what is your definition of passion?

Your $2 winning tiku, no matter how cheap, is still a winning tiku. Seriously, I won't risk a fish that has won me a prize (it will be my beloved one afterall), just for my "convenience" of putting one type of fish together. When you put a already-quarantined fish with a batch of newly-acquired fish fresh from farm, you are putting it back to square 1.

One winning tiku in my hand is worthed more than 100 new potential tiny ones. Remember this proverb?

This is NOT an 'effective' unorthodoxed practice (as mentioned by gohks) but rather, a thoughtless one.

QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:15 pm)
4. I dont use aeration as in air bubbles. I do not deny that the OHF does cause the water to have some aeration.

Please understand that I am still a "beginner" and still learning and experimenting with different methods. My humble apologies for all who find my method bizzare and weird.

Word of caution. This works for me but might not work for someone else. In my 2 years of keeping goldfish, I have lost numerous fish.
*


There is a high demand for disssolved oxygen to keep an aquarium working. Your fishes need it. The BB in the OHF and around your tank needs it even more.

Plus it is no secret you overstock your tank to an unmeasurable extend.

Plus your frequency of feeding, which will surely foul your water pretty fast.

...it is no wonder you have lost "numerous" fish.

Think about the feedbacks by the members here. Seriously, give a thought about altering some of your practices. We are all trying to help by pointing out the questionable practices. In contrast to gohks' misunderstanding of "shutting you off"


=====
No, we are not arrogant. No, we are not unfriendly. No, we do not have double standards. No we are certainly not domineering.
desireless
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:52 pm)
From what I understand from you guys is a 50%, 90% or 100% water change. What I believe in is to keep the water as constant as possible like very small amount of water change. If I have a choice in the future, I would prefer a constant flush of between 3% to 5% water flushing daily.
*


I still have no idea of what this system is about. But a point for you to take note of is the building up of nitrate in your tank. If you do not have a de-nitrating mechanism, Nitrate builds up in AP. It's just going to add on and on if you do not adopt 100% change or do something about it.

For example if you do weekly 50% water change,

Starts with 0ppm Nitrate
10ppm added everyday. On the 7th day you change 50%. Tank left with 35ppm in the water.

After 1st WC, starts with 35ppm
10ppm added everyday. On the 7th day you change 50%. Tank left with 52.5ppm in the water.

After 2nd WC, starts with 52.5ppm
10ppm added everyday. On the 7th day you change 50%. Tank left with 122.5ppm in the water.

After 3rd WC, starts with 122.5ppm,
...and so on....

That is the workout if you do 50% water change weekly. Sorry that I do not comprehend your system. But if you think that water condition can stay constant, have a second thought about it.

QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:52 pm)
My view is that it is very important to rid the system of the discharge from the fish ASAP. Waste from the gills, shit, body slime etc. all needs to be eliminated ASAP.

No comment on that, since it is your preference to do the hard way.

MY clear water system (with no wall algae - I cleared it biggrin.gif):
It works on bio sponge filter.
Feeding is on Autofeeder 5 times a day-pellets. BW when I am free.
At 7th day, the nitrate is usually at the 80ppm. 100% WC
Back to 0-20ppm, routine repeats as it is.
No need to suck out any kind of discharge.

QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:52 pm)
This system is being used extensively in Intensive farming methods. The only problem is that it will also build up the water current which is not suitable for goldfish keeping. Therefore, that is why I use the traditional siphon method.

Maybe the thais work this way. Someone who has been to a Chinese farm would tell you a different story. Mind you the chinese has been into goldfish for centuries.
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:52 pm)
In Singapore, the entire water network system will be using chloramine to treat the water. When you use "hypo" what is left in the water is ammonia. By sunning the water, the formation of algae will rid the water of ammonia. That is why the pails that I use for aging water has lots of algae growth on its sides. For those who have visited me will notice that the pails that I use are transparent pails.
*


I am using hypo too. And yes after breaking down chloramine, the by-product is ammonia. But as mentioned above, I am very confident of my bio filtration. The removal of ammonia is exactly the work of this bio filter.
So now I have a better understanding of your pail method. So you allow algae to do the work for you. But why wait 12 hours later, when you could have allowed some 15mins to half an hour for your filters to work on the ammonia?

Objective reached but if you can fly east of Singapore to reach Japan, why is there a need to travel West, having to bypass India, Africa, America, then finally Japan?

Is there any other reasons that you have not mentioned to justify the sunning method, which takes so much more time and effort?
square_guy
For discussion purposes:

1. Sunning of dechlorinated water in a algae-lined pail.
Technically workable if purpose is to remove minute ammonia trace. I believe someone made some calculations and the resultant ammonoia ppm is really quite small. Need to make sure water is sunned a couple of hours. IMO, using the water direct and making use of the biofilter is easier and of negligible harm due to the minute amount of ammonia.

2. Targetted daily 3% to 5% water flush.
Need to make sure nitrate build-up can be offsetted sufficiently. Without bothering about the precise calculation, seems like Desireless is correct. Not sustainable if nitrate is building up in a conventional manner.

I think it may be possible (on paper) if nitrate is NOT ALLOWED to accumulate conventionally.
a) Protein skimming MIGHT assist. I do not have references for the amount of protein secreted and its proportion wrt to the total carbon waste. However protein skimming is widely acknowledged to work much more efficiently in salt water. I suspect its efficiency in fresh water, but again I do not have concrete references.
b) Denitrator might assist. But denitration is a controversial issue for a normal hobbyist and RL did not mention usage of one.
The Matrix
QUOTE(square_guy @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:12 am)
For discussion purposes:

1. Sunning of dechlorinated water in a algae-lined pail.
Technically workable if purpose is to remove minute ammonia trace. I believe someone made some calculations and the resultant ammonoia ppm is really quite small. Need to make sure water is sunned a couple of hours. IMO, using the water direct and making use of the biofilter is easier and of negligible harm due to the minute amount of ammonia.

2. Targetted daily 3% to 5% water flush.
Need to make sure nitrate build-up can be offsetted sufficiently. Without bothering about the precise calculation, seems like Desireless is correct. Not sustainable if nitrate is building up in a conventional manner.

I think it may be possible (on paper) if nitrate is NOT ALLOWED to accumulate conventionally.
a) Protein skimming MIGHT assist. I do not have references for the amount of protein secreted and its proportion wrt to the total carbon waste. However protein skimming is widely acknowledged to work much more efficiently in salt water. I suspect its efficiency in fresh water, but again I do not have concrete references.
b) Denitrator might assist. But denitration is a controversial issue for a normal hobbyist and RL did not mention usage of one.
*


RIGHT ON TARGET !

1. Ammonia broke down from the chloramines in our tap water is not a major concern. Placing water under sun to get rid of chloramines is never, chemically, technically, physically TRUE. Give me a break ...

Yes, the algae works better and no need to say, Algae is the best nature protector.

2. Desireless and yourself speak of something highly accurate. BUT .....

Did we assume that the filter is working in the first place ? biggrin.gif
Without aeration or minimum aeration, u think the filter working or not ? Working, maybe, but will not be efficient lor.
If the filter is not working, what would be the end result in RL's practise ?

3. Without pic, now all of us got to go lim kopi. We can only make wild guesses ... denitrator, protein skimmer, overflow flush ....

Did anyone here say our methods are the norm ? No leh ... who is the norm now ?

Give u guys another thing to ponder ... 3-5% in a 2ft tank, max of 50L. Not more than 1.5-2.5L a day in the mentioned method.

Now, with regular clearing of waste elements, how much more of water displacement ? Nothing mentioned.

Certain protein are soluble. By water displacement in minute amount to rid of such protein is somewhat doubtful. Any means of measurement to proof ?
gohks
Since no pictures, only can make speculation and calculated guess. From RL's past threads, he mentioned that his tanks got lots of sunlight (I presume outdoor) and if you look at the limited pictures he shows us, there are plenty of algae coated on walls and bottom. Therefore, I think his system is something between cycled cleared and green water type. That may answer why he does not have nitrate problem with his water change schedule. I am presuming his OHF is a heavy bio type that can take the heavy bio load (if the no. of fishes he mentioned in a 2ft tank is true). Besides the space, I would presume his fishes are doing very well in a cleared water thick algae tank with plenty of sunlight. smile.gif
gohks
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:52 pm)
The reason why fish stop growing is because of hormones build-up in the water. Hormones are protein. That is why it is very important to rid the system of protein.

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Folks,
Any comment on RL's above statement. unsure.gif
Kinder
QUOTE(gohks @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:19 am)
Therefore, I think his system is something between cycled cleared and green water type.  That may answer why he does not have nitrate problem with his water change schedule.  I am presuming his OHF is a heavy bio type that can take the heavy bio load (if the no. of fishes he mentioned in a 2ft tank is true). 
*



Trying to figure out what you meant above. I assume that the waste produced (in huge quantities; A: by heavy feeding & B: High Stocking of the fish) would be shared by the BB in the OHF filter and Algae found on the walls. But still the end result from the filter would be processed Nitrate and i dont see that Nitrate going anywhere but remaining in the system. Unless if the wall algae is more dominant and is processing bulk of the waste produced for its survival.

Correct me if im wrong, im just making an effort to learn.

Cheers
Kinder
gohks
You would be surprise the green stuffs can create wonder, just that your tank will be unsightly.

Another thing which puzzle me is this situation will create O2 starvation at night, since he mentioned no addition areation added with this amount of load. Unless his OHF is creating enough pertubation, think there is high risk in this sort of setup. smile.gif
square_guy
Continuing the speculation.......

QUOTE(gohks @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 9:26 am)
Folks,
Any comment on RL's above statement.  unsure.gif
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I am not sure hormones = protein. Carbon-based, yes. I recalled reading articles on the net (and probably postings here) that mentioned the growth-retarding effect of certain hormones when fishes are crowded. Can't remember already.

QUOTE(Kinder @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:18 am)
Trying to figure out what you meant above. I assume that the waste produced (in huge quantities; A: by heavy feeding & B: High Stocking of the fish) would be shared by the BB in the OHF filter and Algae found on the walls. But still the end result from the filter would be processed Nitrate and i dont see that Nitrate going anywhere but remaining in the system. Unless if the wall algae is more dominant and is processing bulk of the waste produced for its survival.

Cheers
Kinder
*



Like Matrix mentioned, efficiency of filter could be low due to possibly low DO. But is difficult to say for sure the end result is nitrate. Different types of algae have different affinity for food (nitrate or ammonia). Assuming heavy feeding in a small 2ft tank with algae with the said water-change amount and interval, my guess (based on personal experience and feedback from other people) is that is it impossible to control the nitrate.

No exact buffering figure is given. Again, impossible to be sure pH is at optimal level for filter.

QUOTE(gohks @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 1:14 pm)
You would be surprise the green stuffs can create wonder, just that your tank will be unsightly.

Another thing which puzzle me is this situation will create O2 starvation at night, since he mentioned no addition areation added with this amount of load.  Unless his OHF is creating enough pertubation, think there is high risk in this sort of setup. smile.gif
*



Green stuff may create wonder, but is no magic bullet too. It can only do so much.

OHF is creating slight pertubation, I doubt it is enough for the filter alone. There is definitely a high risk of O2 starvation at night with the addition of the algae.

End of day, only more speculation with no real and new content to contribute to forum. hmm.gif
gohks
QUOTE(square_guy @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 2:07 pm)
I am not sure hormones = protein. Carbon-based, yes. I recalled reading articles on the net (and probably postings here) that mentioned the growth-retarding effect of certain hormones when fishes are crowded. Can't remember already.
*


What I also read of is hormones = organic carbon-based, and first time this protein came in rusure.gif . I am also very interested to see how protein can be skimmed from a non-marine tank. shiok.gif
RL threw a bomb out and let it bounce around and went into hibernation liao sad.gif Perhaps really need to lim kopi in his house to get things clarify. yes.gif
CyberET
QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 17 Jun 2006 5:52 pm)
I think on showing a picture of the protein skimmer, I rather not post it in the forum. If you like, you are welcome to visit my home to see it first hand.
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y rather not post? PM me if its in inconvenient to mention the reason here.

QUOTE(gohks @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 9:26 am)
Folks,
Any comment on RL's above statement.  unsure.gif
*


as for anti-growth hormones being protein based..

i've a vortex protein skimmer that i have been using on my koi pond for a yr now.. bought during Aquarama 2005 from white crane.

if it works.. i would have observed a huge growth after installation, which i didn't, my kois just maintained their size..

i purposely didn't change water to test it's effectiveness, only top up almost 10% a day due to evaporation during hot days.

yes, i do collect 2~3 pails of darker than urine liquid a day.


i tried increasing the amount i feed a day from 1kg to more than 3kg a day for 1/2 year. no obvious changes.

pond is crystal clear.

the only advantage is that it keeps hairy algae growth in check.

in the end, i concluded, nothing beats massive water change. everytime a 80% change is done on my 4~5ton pond, the kois growth increase for a week before the growth slows to a crawl again. before & after installation of a skimmer.
The Matrix
QUOTE(gohks @ Sun, 18 Jun 2006 4:41 pm)
I am also very interested to see how protein can be skimmed from a non-marine tank.  shiok.gif
*


Hahahahaha ... ah goh, you going into the dark dark dark area of super arguement liao. Step out.

Protein float on surface wor ... someone will think that way.
Gill waste can be clear by sucking little water ASAP ... i wonder if I can use a vacuum cleaner to suck the air for a while after producing audible discharge of intestinal gas. wacko.gif whistle.gif siaoleow.gif birgits_giggle.gif

Anyone interest to watch Japan match over a nice cup of coffee.gif
goldrush
I have been sitting by the fence for far too long............

First for some references


Chlorine /chloramine I believe we had a superb and wonderful discussion here

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...503&hl=chlorine

growth hormones here

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...1&hl=pheromones


ok as for protein skimmer,I think a better name would be fractionator as it removes more than just protein (DOC:not me but dissolved organic carbon)and it does not skim just off just the surface.You see the air bubbles are utilize to separate(fractionate)the dissolved matter from the water through foaming or frothing.Having said that,square guy is correct that protein skimmer works more appropriately in a marine setup.This is because the salinity simply increases the surface tension,which attracts the surfactants for eliminating purpose.In fresh water setup you need tremendous high pressure to fulfill this process which is simply not feasible.
So a protein skimmer removes all organic matter(not just proteins)which if not removed would undergo normal nitrification process ie ammonia>nitrite>nitrate

Now the interesting thing I need to emphasize is skimming does remove pheromones.Now this hormones are far more than just growth inhibitors as they are chemical communication that influence reproduction,feeding,behaviour and lots more in fishes.
So apart from suppressing growth, pheromones are found to suppress immunity, which can lead to increased incidence of disease and parasitic susceptibility.


Now as goldfish keepers we are well informed of the danger of ammonia and nitrites but as for nitrates we tend to overlook as it is always deem to be well tolerated and therefore less harmful to our fishes. High levels of nitrate in water can potentially cause the death of fish. To me nitrates are silent killers without much physical manifestation of any morbidity in your fish and often only detected when irreversible damage have been done.Over 30PPM of nitrate can inhibit growth, impair the immune system, cause stress, and reduce energy levels.For the experience keepers nitrates are irked at for causing“bleeding”of the veins of fins and possible shrinking wens.

With that I leave you with this classic song sung to the theme of American Pie(Don McClean)and let you draw your own conclusion before embarking on this hiherto uncharted territory.Is it going to be HARAKIRI or KAMIKAZE ..


God knows





So buy-buy, this RL guy
Drove our senses to the edges
And leave us all dry
He maybe champion one day with his tikus fries
Singin,That will be the day RG say good bye
That will be the day we can all cry…….
gohks
Will like to hear from RL how his protein skimmer work against science. Guess MIA liao rolleyes.gif
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(square_guy @ Thu, 15 Jun 2006 2:54 pm)
Ranchu Lover,

I have seen you mentioning grooming many a times on AF and RG. RG forummers have been rather open with their grooming techniques, so I think it is about time you share with the everyone your planned grooming practices too. I am sure it will be beneficial to have a two-way knowledge sharing.
*


You see, it all started with this comment. I am just sharing my method as requested which I believe is not acceptable by most members here. Just let things be and continue with your own established method of keeping. I am not a doctor, a scientists or an expert in goldfish keeping. I am sharing without any authority or am I trying to convience anyone to follow my method.

From some of the comments made, I believe many of you here do not experience any form of goldfish mortality in your keeping method. With my method of keeping I have experienced some goldfish mortality.

If my method is wrong, just don't follow. I never claimed that it is the right method or the best method. With my limited resources, this method has worked well for me. May not be the best but as I have said before, I am still searching.

Frankly, I am still scratching my head and wondering with so many fish in my tub, my ranchu can still grow past the 8 inch length and my oranda to past the 12 inch length. Sorry guys, I really don't know why!
desireless
Aww, c'mon... You see RL, this is exactly why we've told you to share with us what your method is all about. If you don't know why, then this is the time to find out why. Who knows you could have an out-of-the-world discovery that will benefit the whole goldfish community? sstar.gif:

When or where else are you going to get your mysteries solved? Here we are, so many brains ready to crack for you. We've looked through your list and pointed out the questionable things which we're hoping that you can elaborate. I am curious to why you're not willing to show us some pictures? Why would you rather not defend your practice which you seem to have so much faith in? Right now because some details are not furbished with, there're still plenty of question marks in the air.

This is what discussions are for, afterall? Right? Some phenomena happens, and you don't how or why. Then you seek help from other experienced peers. Through intense discussion, your mysteries are solved. You benefit. So do your friends who would be so grateful to you for bringing it up for discussion.
The Matrix
RL, imagine if we are to make a trip to your place right now and ask a lot of questions, are you going to release your dogs and chase us out of the house ?

Maybe you have yet to encounter visitors that ask you questions, now u are facing some. I said many times before, there are many different types of goldfish keepers in the world. There are many practises as well. Each has their benefits and disadvantages. I am very interested to see how each method works.

Furthermore, you might not be talking to the right people that help you understand. Why ? Either now u sit on those trophies and figure out why many fish died and why some grow, or enhance your knowledge by seeking answer actively thru discussion.

Knowledge is gained if you open your mind.
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