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goldrush
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QUOTE(desireless @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 1:31 pm)
Is that sponge filter? You shouldn't have bio-filters in your greenwater. It defeats the purpose of using green water and the bio setup will compete nutrients with the green water algae. Let the algae do the job of removing the fishes' waste.
*



Just curious from a biological stand point,can we achieve green water in bio-filter setup?In theory it may seems illogical but can the two system co exist in harmony as an example of competitive inclusion rather than a competitive exclusion.You see what we want is actually elimination of ammonia which both systems do wonderfully.But as for green water there is a limitation and that is light which it needs to fulfil to consume any ammonia.So in hours of reduced light like today,the green water would be significantly reduced in its effect to eliminate any secreted ammonia.So if you can have a back up like a functioning bio-filter running in the presence of green water,wouldn't it achieve the best of both worlds in combating the same enemy. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif Think about it .....but I guess you need to achieve a totally biological, balance ecosystem to satisfy both to complement their harmonious existence.

For me I believe the 2 systems already coexisted the day any water is added to any pond even though you may not promote its existence.You see,these microscopic animacules can assume both free-floating or in bio-film.Now it is those that are attached as plagues or bio-films which adhere to surfaces that can start a satellite of microscopic existence,a city of self sufficiency,efficacy and harmony.Now these are attached to any surfaces(floor,wood,glass and even mulms)and assume respiration,reproduction,growth as in all life forms(higher or lower)So if it is a matter of encouraging a particular form of algae to eliminate ammonia which is of your main interest then aren't you depriving another which can equally be effective if not better in hours of darkness........


.Brain teasing???

goldrush
infocus
Hey, I'm testing that right not. biggrin.gif But I'm not sure is my bio-filter fully cycled yet. Time will tell and I can see if it can co-exist with green water. I'm trying to feed more now a days to bring up the ammonia level. Will see if the bio-filter and green water help to eliminate the ammonia after a while.
desireless
Tried it before. Not so successful. It is especially difficult to kick start after water change. Sometimes it just collapses. Of course, I am speaking from my experience with small-scale indoor green water.

Experience also taught me that when I use bio-filter with green water, or use PSB-based food diet, the result will be jade green green water......

... And Matrix will have lots to say about jade-green green water biggrin.gif


As for the concern with bio load at night, this is exactly why it has been mentioned many times to last feed your fishes at least 4 hours before last light.
infocus
Tell me more! beg2.gif Tell me more! beg2.gif What is jade green green water? Are they useless for the goldfish?
The Matrix
Desireless, I won't disagree on Doc explaination.
Hmmm ... co-existance is possible. I would not question the power of nature.

Should we go into a full boom green, dirty looking, cannot appreciate the fish at all type of green or do we want a clear water, see fish in full detail or do we want to have a mix of both world.

When do we need any of this, why do we need, how could we achieve it and what benefits do we get from any one of it.

I only question the intend.
goldrush
Yes agreed that you will have difficulty in initial kick start as there would be too little organic nutrients to sustain both parties.Perhaps you can assume green first before incorporating some biofilter to share the bioload once a certain greenery is achieved.Incidentally in planktonic organisms they have highly invoved in their mode of nutrition that they can switch from autotroph(create its own food)to heterotroph(requring organic nutrients)So if light is not available they can switch to feeding on organic nutrients.So photosynthesis may not occur in darkness or low light but nutrition is very much alive!!!!
So do not assume photosynthesis (hour of light)as the only process capable of reducing your nutrient bioload.


Until now I am still puzzled by stopping feeding at 2pm rusure.gif
gohks
Try before outdoor but not successful. Logically reasoning will make you believe they would not co-exisit hmm.gif .
Think these green water algae needs plentiful of ammonia to cultivate (besides the NO3 which enough for wall algae or filamentous algae) which the BB also needs (in day time). During the night, both will be competing for O2. These are highly unfavourable competing conditions that either one will dominate. Don't think an equilibrium state will be reach.
Experiment could be tried out. Setup 2 tanks outdoor, one bare and one with plenty of biological substrate material. I think the latter water will not turn green. Or you can add in the biological material into the ready green water, don't think the BB will be cultured smile.gif
cheangv
What if you have an existing cycled tank and a separate mature green water and you start transferring the green water into the cycled tank. If you also have a continous high bioload in the tank, would it be able to support both?
gohks
QUOTE(cheangv @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:37 pm)
What if you have an existing cycled tank and a separate mature green water and you start transferring the green water into the cycled tank. If you also have a continous high bioload in the tank, would it be able to support both?
*


My take is either one will collapse, depending on which is more. If both co-exist, think your fishes will not exist laugh.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(goldrush @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:29 pm)
Until now I am still puzzled by stopping feeding at 2pm rusure.gif
*


kekekeke ... how about another ponder ...

In wild pond, predators eat anytime they want to, as long as hungry. Where got dun feed after 2pm one. Some are night hunters.

So how how ... bioloading never stop, 24 hours ... how how how.


Start puzzling.
coffee.gif
cheangv
OK, then how about adding in some green water as a food source for the goldfish in a cycled tank? Does not matter if they collapse as I will continue to replenish from my other green water source. Then you will still have clear water (maybe with a slight greenish tint) and yet the goldfish can get some of the benefit of green water
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:46 pm)
kekekeke ... how about another ponder ...

In wild pond, predators eat anytime they want to, as long as hungry. Where got dun feed after 2pm one. Some are night hunters.

So how how ... bioloading never stop, 24 hours ... how how how.
Start puzzling.
coffee.gif
*


Either the predators are resistance to ammonia posoning, or
predators are passive at night, not so much ammonia release till morning, or
pH level does not cause ammonia shock, or
too much dilution due to spacious environment...
correct or not tongue.gif
gohks
QUOTE(cheangv @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:54 pm)
and yet the goldfish can get some of the benefit of green water
*


??? then u have CW biggrin.gif with algae as food source tongue.gif
goldrush
My intent is not to eliminate green water but to complement it through the introduction of some biofiltration once established to share the bioload and eliminate any residual ammonia in the hours of deficiency in total green water management(if any?).In this way perhaps you can increase feeding as well as added frequencies and indirectly achieve higher growth rate without fear of a possible collapse
desireless
QUOTE(goldrush @ Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:29 pm)
....
Until now I am still puzzled by stopping feeding BEFORE 2pm rusure.gif
*


A simple explanation to the "BEFORE 2pm rule" is to ensure that there is enough time given to let the fishes digest and pass out whatever diet you have fed them in a day, and to let the algae work on the wastes, before the night comes.

I also do not disagree with the possibility of finding that "balance" for green water and bio-filtration to co-exist. It is possible. The problem is, you must find that balance. Like Goh pointed out, too much of either one will eliminate the other. And there is this grey area where both "seem" to co-exist, but you are not getting the "correct" algae/green. So the control must be very precise.
Toji
laugh.gif Wow to let both run together man u msut really be able to balance the system man.... to let your Bio filter run without competing and wiping out the green water...... beg2.gif I salute u!!

I was thinking maybe letting green water to run with Mech-filter is a good idea liao....

Now waitng for setup to be right to do a green water method with partial WC along the way b4 flushing and reseeding it.... trying to optimise the 'cleaness' of the water..... dunno got will work well anot.... laugh.gif
CyberET
don't choke the filter laugh.gif
gohks
Question is whether this equilibrium will be met uhm.gif like trying to balance an inverted pyramid tongue.gif
Maybe we should try adding bio-starter to green water and try to measure ammonia at night smile.gif
goldrush
Equilibrium certainly at one point will be met but the question is how long it can be maintained at a reasonable range of balance with so much dynamism of multifactors that are everchanging in such a closed system.

The interplay of these factors will result in the ratio of the effect green against the effect of biofilter constantly changing and exerting their influences in a given space.

In theory,if one throws in a few biofilter(eg sponge filter) in an established green water,wouldn't these halt the bloom to a certain extend as to curb its proliferation to a critical level where water changes are mandatory to reduce its detrimental influences? Just another of my proposition without any proof of its success. biggrin.gif
top_view_ranchu
The trick is to have the correct amount of fish, amount of biofilter, understanding the max level of green, when to change water and correct amount to seed. yes.gif
Charles Lam
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 07 Jul 2006 1:23 am)
A simple explanation to the "BEFORE 2pm rule" is to ensure that there is enough time given to let the fishes digest and pass out whatever diet you have fed them in a day, and to let the algae work on the wastes, before the night comes.

I also do not disagree with the possibility of finding that "balance" for green water and bio-filtration to co-exist. It is possible. The problem is, you must find that balance. Like Goh pointed out, too much of either one will eliminate the other. And there is this grey area where both "seem" to co-exist, but you are not getting the "correct" algae/green. So the control must be very precise.
*



In my pond, I manage to achieve a co-existence between the two, green water and bio filter.
goldrush
So am I right to say some of us here have achieved it.(TVR and Charles)

So in order to achieve this purported balanced ecosystem,one must allow the correct processes to occur with respect to

1)the number of fishes,
2)the amount and intensity of green (plants/algae) attained and maintained
3)all micro-organisms.....the numbers of biofilters or substrates for their existence

Each system I believe has its own "balance point" which takes careful monitoring and maitenance to achieve.

Perhaps this perfectly matched and balanced system is something that we keepers have been striving for......(some may have found it)but for the majority of us,this continual search for perfection in our water maintenance and indirectly our fishes is what make goldfish keeping the pleasure that is !!!!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
top_view_ranchu
I feel that its simpler for biofilter to work with wall algae, coz you know that the filtration is working/kick started by not having the 3rd party(green water) appearing. While filtration and green water need alot of trial and error to achieve perfection.
desireless
QUOTE(Charles Lam @ Fri, 07 Jul 2006 2:00 pm)
In my pond, I manage to achieve a co-existence between the two, green water and bio filter.
*


That's interesting. What bio filter are you using? Are you sure that it is cycled? What is the colour of your green water?

I don't suppose you mean this, do you?


What are your results on these?
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=44714
infocus
What if I increase the ammonia level by feeding more? Will that helps to maintain the bio-load at a level enough for both green water and bio-filter?

And what is the difference of jade green green water? Can someone shed some light?
The Matrix
Did you forgotten what is the purpose of using green water in the first place. Why should you increase ammonia, that would harm your fish, for the purpose of maintaining the green water. Might as well go back to clear water.
infocus
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:03 pm) *

Did you forgotten what is the purpose of using green water in the first place. Why should you increase ammonia, that would harm your fish, for the purpose of maintaining the green water. Might as well go back to clear water.


I asked this because I want to feed more to increase the growth but at the same time do less water change. What I meant is to increase the ammonia level just enough to maintain both green water and bio-filter, without affecting the health of the fishes. But what is the level just nice for that?? unsure.gif unsure.gif

That's why we are talking about the possibility of having both to compliment each other so that I reiterate, "to increase the growth but still do less water change". If there is no way of having an equilibrium in this sense, then I think green water and bio-filter can't exist together.
goldrush
I read with amazement on some of the responses with regards to green water.

Are we missing something here??????


Green water are principally green algae with “restricted” amount of beneficial bacteria, which in the presence of sunlight assume photosynthetic mode of nutrition(as in higher plants)which we deemed as on autotrophic mode.In reduced light they switch to heterotrophic mode and consume organic nutrients!!!!.So as I read further then how does algae consume AMMONIA????? as many seems to err on this concept.
Algae does not in anyway enter into the nitrification cycle except the last pathway where nitrates are utilize as in higher plants.Can any kind souls here enlighten me on something which I’m not aware of and quote scientific literatures to support your claim.

So what do you think in green water rid your pond/aquarium of your harmful ammonia if the above holds true???

Time to put on your thinking cap boys….
gohks
QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:21 am) *

I read with amazement on some of the responses with regards to green water.

Are we missing something here??????
Green water are principally green algae with “restricted” amount of beneficial bacteria, which in the presence of sunlight assume photosynthetic mode of nutrition(as in higher plants)which we deemed as on autotrophic mode.In reduced light they switch to heterotrophic mode and consume organic nutrients!!!!.So as I read further then how does algae consume AMMONIA????? as many seems to err on this concept.
Algae does not in anyway enter into the nitrification cycle except the last pathway where nitrates are utilize as in higher plants.Can any kind souls here enlighten me on something which I’m not aware of and quote scientific literatures to support your claim.

So what do you think in green water rid your pond/aquarium of your harmful ammonia if the above holds true???

Time to put on your thinking cap boys….

Doc,
What we learnt is from what the "expert" says blush.gif Don't tell me is the blind leading the blind. I learnt this from Vermillion as they state in their web:-

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae." rusure.gif
gohks
QUOTE(infocus @ Sun, 09 Jul 2006 8:28 pm) *

I asked this because I want to feed more to increase the growth but at the same time do less water change. What I meant is to increase the ammonia level just enough to maintain both green water and bio-filter, without affecting the health of the fishes. But what is the level just nice for that?? unsure.gif unsure.gif

That's why we are talking about the possibility of having both to compliment each other so that I reiterate, "to increase the growth but still do less water change". If there is no way of having an equilibrium in this sense, then I think green water and bio-filter can't exist together.

Sounds like free lunch biggrin.gif No need to resort to this sort of "balance" condition in goldfish keeping.

The benefits of green water already well documented and need not further elaborate.

As for clear cycled water, there are still doubts of whether we can achived good result. From my limited experience, as long as you can achieve these you are in pretty good shape:-

i) Keep the Ammonia to zero:- easily achived in cycled tank with sufficient bio filtration;
ii) Keep the ph > 7.5
iii) Keep the cycled by-product (e.g. nitrate) in check:- this can be acheived by algae, plants or nitrate removal.
iv) Dilute the growth inhibitor (not sure if it really exists) by having absorption material (carbon), if you don't like water change.
v) Having sufficeint sunlight:- this one most of us do not have resulting in poor result.
vi) Feed the fish alot to ensure sufficient growth rate. Do not know how to quantify but make sure your fish not too fat. Also skill of good water quality control must be good in order to feed more (this is the fallacy that most of the people do not have,e.g feed more -> poor water quality -> fish sick, feed less to ensure good water quality -> fish does not grow and weaken. Thing to muster here is how to achieve both (easily done if you try hard, there is really free lunch smile.gif ).
vii) Provide more space for the fish.
viii) Select a good fish. Follow the QT rules.
ix) Ensure that your fish not falling sick. Well balance conditions (the aboves) provide good health to your fishes and they should never sick. Treating sick fish is fire fight and is too late.

If you have a good control of the aboves, you should be doing well. The others like water temp (as long as not too much flutuation), salinity... are secondary. Keeping goldfish is that "easy". ;)
goldrush
QUOTE(gohks @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:44 am) *

Doc,
What we learnt is from what the "expert" says blush.gif Don't tell me is the blind leading the blind. I learnt this from Vermillion as they state in their web:-

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae." rusure.gif



OK .............Name me some Ammonia consumung algae then
square_guy
Food for Thoughts


From a rapid search on the web,
Nitrogen preference of test species

Above link shows that certain aquatic plants (not algae) prefer ammonium, and not nitrate.

Unicellular green algae - Chlamydomonas reinhardtii
(I am not saying this is the green water algae we have)

Ammonia Exchange and Photorespiration in Chlamydomonas

I just got the above article from PubMed and haven't really read through it. Very interesting.
goldrush
Thank you square guy for the wonderful reference on NH3 consuming species which few are aware.But the pea soup which we encounter contains hundreds over species of single celled planktonic organisms,chiefly Euglena species which are neither plant nor animal in classification(protist) which are photosynthetic in hours of light and which requirements are very much similar to higher plant which include your Chlamyydomonas as well
So given the scenario as above as every organisms in the common pool compete for the same energy source,it will be very surprising this little population of such limited NH3 feeding chlamydomonas species can be an effective Ammonia eliminators.


So the sentence”enough goldfish to produce ammonia-the food source of algae is misleading and can be misread as it only satisfy the requirements of a very,very small population of total algae present.....

No wonder you need so much time before last light to eliminate your residual ammonia rusure.gif
square_guy
QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 3:16 pm) *

But the pea soup which we encounter contains hundreds over species of single celled planktonic organisms,chiefly Euglena species which are neither plant nor animal in classification(protist) which are photosynthetic in hours of light and which requirements are very much similar to higher plant which include your Chlamyydomonas as well


Doc, can you provide some references for the above statement regarding "Euglena species"? I would like to read up more and some direct references are always easier than searching blindly.
goldrush
A concise description of the many Euglena sp found in any water can be read here

http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLanding...ges/euglena.htm



How they form the main bulk of green water can be found here


http://www.algone.com/greenwater.htm


Will try to search for more if time permits

regards

goldrush
goldrush
Now from the above,can we agree that only a small amount of Ammonia is utilize and taken up by aquatic plants as part of their nutrition as the bulk of your green water constituents are not ammonia consuming organisms(don’t confuse with bacteria hor)And if this bulk consist of euglenoid and related species that have the abilities to switch mode of nutrition,then can we conclude that during photosynthesis and in the presence of light they do not act as scavengers in reducing our organic nutrients which are the result of fish poo,uneaten food,decaying and decomposing organics.So what am I driving you at?
In sunny weather you maybe in for trouble if these organics are not process fast enough due to the green water’s strike(if I can use the term) in switching to photosynthetic mode.
Perhaps why you stop at 2pm is not to allow potential organic buildup to surpass a critical level as to cause undue harm as the organic scavenging may not kick in till last light(in the absence of light)Perhaps you can measure your parameters at this point of time to confirm the findings.
Because of the percentage of NH3 consuming algae are in low quantities that is why you need to adhere diligently to the fish to water ratio so as not to cause unnecessary harm if you practice green water management.

So what then remove your ammonia from your water?
The answer is still your beneficial friends which you deem as foes….

So why can’t beneficial bacteria live in harmony with green water?????

Please enlighten

goldrush
The Matrix
wah si mi tai ji ...

same old problem over Aquaeous Nitrogen again ?

Tell me how does those nitrification bacteria reduce the aquaeous nitrogen to a less harmful nitrogen compound ?
goldrush
Dear squareguy

Just another study on euglena and possible various toxins which it can secrete.

Notice >99% of the critters isolated are Euglena spp however the study is not done in our goldfish but some catfish pond laugh.gif


http://www.plantbiology.msu.edu/triemer/Eu...enoid_toxin.pdf
goldrush
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 9:58 pm) *

wah si mi tai ji ...

same old problem over Aquaeous Nitrogen again ?

Tell me how does those nitrification bacteria reduce the aquaeous nitrogen to a less harmful nitrogen compound ?



Si mi si aqueous nitrogen wah buay hiow leh????
goldrush
"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

From what I have written and supported by scientific findings and inferences,the above sentence does not hold true as ammonia is never a main source of nutrition of majority species of algae whcih are in your green water.

It is actually the dissolved organic nutrients (fish poo,uneaten food,manure,fertilisers etc)that are utilised in the absence of light which contributes to the florishing and proliferation of your algae.


Can any club members here support their claim before I start peeing into my pond???
gohks
QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 4:44 pm) *

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

From what I have written and supported by scientific findings and inferences,the above sentence does not hold true as ammonia is never a main source of nutrition of majority species of algae whcih are in your green water.

It is actually the dissolved organic nutrients (fish poo,uneaten food,manure,fertilisers etc)that are utilised in the absence of light which contributes to the florishing and proliferation of your algae.
Can any club members here support their claim before I start peeing into my pond???

Hey, if that's true, why goldfish can thrive in green water and why should we suffer for not able to see our fishes smile.gif

Will this be like Dawin's theory of evolution and never be proven complete true. I will nominate you for next year Nobel prize if your discovery is proven correct laugh.gif and somebody will be very happy if this is the fact ;)

why need to pee, just connect your sewer pipe to your pond and you will get very "green" water laugh.gif
goldrush
I never doubt the benefits of green water but I am just not convinced that ammonia is a main source of nutrients even if that is in the absence of sunlight.

THE kEY WORD HERE IS FOOD SOURCE.........AMMONIA....... hmm.gif hmm.gif hmm.gif

Any scientists and even colloge students can testify that they thrive on sunlight and organic nutrients and not inorganics.Unconvinced please search the net and see what is written by any sound scientific papers or reputable aquarium/pond sites(not porn sites).Ammonia is never highlighted as a main source of nutrients.Please

I pee becos it yields instant ammonia and nitrogenous waste to see if my algae turn them into something harmless hysterical.gif hysterical.gif hysterical.gif
goldrush
Let me continue where I have left

Hey everything exist in an equlibrium just like green water causing algae are ever present in well established pond (fully cycled)and your nitrifying bacteria are ever present also in your green water..Like it or not.Only external changes and human intervention can tip this balance in one’s favour but never eliminate it completely.
Why I highlight this false claim is to educate forum and not to ridicule any party.For all you know you may be crediting the wrong organisms for eliminating your ammonia.No thanks to some greenkies.

A good example would be a well established pond with excellent filtration system.But because of increased hours of sunlight,increased nitrates precipitation,we still experience algae bloom….Isn’t this a clear example of co-exsistence of the two within the same pond?Probably the only problem would be clogging of your mechanical filters which may lead to reduced nitrification processes as a result and the consequences are pretty self explanatory. ;)
ranchu8
QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 4:44 pm) *

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

From what I have written and supported by scientific findings and inferences,the above sentence does not hold true as ammonia is never a main source of nutrition of majority species of algae whcih are in your green water.

It is actually the dissolved organic nutrients (fish poo,uneaten food,manure,fertilisers etc)that are utilised in the absence of light which contributes to the florishing and proliferation of your algae.
Can any club members here support their claim before I start peeing into my pond???

Hi Goldrush, does your theoy then explain why ammonia is negligible when the green water is rather intense?

Also, the water is less green in the night but becomes more intense when there is sunlight?
desireless
QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:35 pm) *

OK .............Name me some Ammonia consumung algae then

Wah lau eh... rusure.gif I might as well count my hair. There are tens of thousands algae names to look into - Even if you ask a Prof in this field, he won't be able to tell you specifically. In outdoor green water like rivers or reservoirs, it is not uncommon to find a few species of algae co-existing. So it is ok that we generalize green water algae with the term "phytoplankton".

Anyway, this is a very interesting discussion. I too, am unable to find a convincing schematic diagram of "How green water algae eats ammonia?" process (I'm interested in knowing how the mechanism takes place, like how I learn about nitrogen cycle). Yet, there are many materials online that directly or indirectly indicate that ammonia is the source for green water algae.

For example (let's take euglena sp. as example):

http://www.utoronto.ca/env/jah/lim/lim06f99.htm
"EUGLENOPHYTA (Euglenoids) - Relatively large and diverse group but few species are truly planktonic. Most are unicellular but lack a cell wall and possess 1-3 flagella arising from an invagination of the external membrane. Most are P/S and facultatively heterotrophic. Nutrition is supplemented by the uptake of ammonia and DON. Euglenoids are found most often in seasons, depth strata, or lake systems in which ammonia and especially [DON] are high. (e.g., Euglena, Phacus) "

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/d...784&search=
Two things are important in controlling algae: nutrients in the water and sunlight. Planktonic algae uses ammonia (not nitrates) in the water as a nutrient. Installing a biological filter and a pump that turns the pond water over about 18 times per day should eliminate the ammonia and cause the algae to die off. If the pond holds less than 1000 gallons of water, you can make a simple biological filter by putting gravel in a 30-gallon garbage pail and pumping pond water through it at a rate of 800 gallons per hour.
(Notice that this is a good example: It is teaching one how to remove green water by installing a bio-filttation. To ensure ammonia is taken in by the filtration faster than the green water algae)

If you google algae blooms that involve Euglena sp, (read specifically on researches/reports), you will notice that authors will usually credit algae blooms to high concentration of Ammonia, Nitrate, and other nitrogen compound. Notice that they specifically indicate ammonia in these reports.

Examples like these:

http://squeezethepulp.com/viewtopic.php?t=...a367237daf20dd9
"The algae bloom in University Lake was identified as Euglena---which thrives on ammonia and is often associated with farm ponds, said Linda Ehrlich, owner of Spirogyra, the Burlington company that identified the euglena in the lake."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract
"Red blooms of Euglena sp. in the floodplain wetland ecosystems of Barak Valley, Assam, India, were found to be induced by high concentrations of NH3-N, NO3, Fe, Mg and to some extent, PO4, Cu and Zn in their water. The trace elements were rapidly accumulated by the bloom organisms to high levels, whereby their concentrations in the water declined, leading to a collapse of the bloom, which tended to reappear as decomposition again led to the release of the nutrients. The bloom also harboured fairly high density of certain other algae and zooplankton, thereby acting as a sub-system within the wetland ecosystem. The bloom is non-toxic and is exploited as a fish food by the fish-farmers who artificially induce a bloom for augmenting the growth of surface-feeding species of fishes."

The only time that I read about bacteria working in harmony with algae is here:
http://people.westminstercollege.edu/facul...pages/algae.htm
IPB Image
"Oxygen is generated by photosynthetic algae. It becomes trapped under its crust, and waves break the domes, releasing the gas as bubbles. Algae are the principle primary producer of organic matter in the North arm, which has been found useful to the bacteria. Algae depend on ammonia directly, and bacteria produce ammonia from organic matter containing nitrogen. Algae supply organic nutrients and stimulate the growth of bacteria to a remarkable degree."
The bacteria mentioned here is not the nitrifying bacteria (Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter) that we know so well of, but rather it is one that is involved in the process called "Nitrogen Fixation". In short, this is a process involving a family of bacteria that converts the inert N2 in the atmosphere into other useful nitrogen compounds like ammonia. The diagram above best describe a closed cycle in which that bacteria produces ammonia to the algae while algae produces organic nutrient for the bacteria. Focus at the "ALGAE" box - the arrow points from the "NH3" (ammonia) box

These are reports involving Euglena sp. I've read that Euglena is red/brown in colour so I am not entirely convinced that this is the kind that is in abundance in the green water that we see.

Lastly in this report on "phytoplankton" in Lake Powell in Australia, it is mentioned that:
http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/techn...001/tr44-01.pdf
Page [41 of 85]
"The occurrence of phytoplankton blooms in Lake Powell and Marbellup Brook are strongly influenced by nutrient release of soluble inorganic phosphate (FRP) and ammonia (N-NH3) from sediments and periodic influxes of nutrients from catchment sources. In addition..."

It seems to me that it is generally and widely accepted by researchers on green water algae that ammonia is the nutrient needed by such algae.


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Of course what you've proposed is indeed a perfect situation. Green Water algae produces oxygen for BB to nitrify ammonia to nitrate, which in turn is fed by the algae. But in the absense of ammonia, the chance for existence of BB is incredibly low, because there is no nutrient (ammonia) for them to thrive on! So meaning to say, if your outdoor green water pond is full of algae and somehow you're able to find that BB exist in abundance, chances are that you're not getting the correct algae (that feeds on ammonia).

QUOTE(goldrush @ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 8:42 pm) *

...
A good example would be a well established pond with excellent filtration system.But because of increased hours of sunlight,increased nitrates precipitation,we still experience algae bloom….Isn’t this a clear example of co-exsistence of the two within the same pond?Probably the only problem would be clogging of your mechanical filters which may lead to reduced nitrification processes as a result and the consequences are pretty self explanatory. ;)

Ahhh... This phenomenal is explained here:
(I think the author mixed up NH3 with NH4.)
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...8/msg00269.html

Nonetheless, he did mention that
"I've shown this to happen in numerous tanks and have repeated the same findings in controlled tanks. Keep adding a fish/shrimp etc till you hit a breaking point where the system starts to become unstable and the algae blooms begin. That's the max NH4 uptake the tank can handle without getting algae. NH4 is something you need to balance and have very little of in your tank. You get too much and you'll get all sorts of algae depending on the lighting level. "

Of course I am in no position to endorse what he said. Neither do I know who this guy is to believe in him completely.

But what he says makes sense. His argument is that ammonia is the main "actor" behind the green water bloom in an established clear water system, not nitrate. So one has to learn on how to control ammonia, by not overstocking his aquarium (which is what we have been telling newbies over and over again). But an algae bloom will only happens IFF there is abundant sunlight AND you overstocked until a point where your filtration can't take in anymore ammonia released by the fishes.
goldrush
good_very.gif good_very.gif good_very.gif Bravo to Desireless


That is what I call constructive and informative dialogue
So certainly now there is some truth in ammonia being consumed by green water.Sorry I had subscribed to the old and obsolete belief that they thrive on light and high nitrates.But again as in science there are always conflicting findings and reports which are never concrete and certain.No wonder any findings need to evolve from a thesis,a theory,a principle before it becomes a law.That is perhaps why science can never surpass Art in many instances. hmm.gif

Now if what is reported holds true then wouldn’t be green water be a better Ammonia consumer in hours of low light than in sunny weather?
Shouldn’t we feed more towards the night fall as they switch from autotroph to heterotroph mode.?

rolleyes.gif
desireless
If you have not raised this question, I would have accepted that belief without finding out why tongue.gif

Anyway, that was about the source of food for algae. As for when the uptake of this food source happens, there should be no dispute that it happens under ample light, in the day.
white horse T1
i am really impressed. beg2.gif

mana wu eng....... smile.gif) my only proof comes from the endorsement from the fishlove magazine, it says green water ok and works , the magazine also says the result is better than cw. lucky it is fishlove that say so not me. tongue.gif
top_view_ranchu
By the way, my experience with bio and green water : It's possible to maintain the green you want. Green will not collapse, and water change can be prolong to months.
goldrush
QUOTE(top_view_ranchu @ Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:13 pm) *

By the way, my experience with bio and green water : It's possible to maintain the green you want. Green will not collapse, and water change can be prolong to months.



Wow now I see more light at the end of this tunnel.Do you use sponge filter as bio or otherwise?
So does that mean you do not have do a complete water change but opt for a partial one to maintain the green intensity of your choice.And if so can you actually prolong the feeding beyond the 2pm mark as the resultant ammonia can be taken care off by the bio and indirectly enhances growth rate in the process? happydance1.gif
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