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goldrush
In celebrating cp turning GREEN here's my topic that hopefully does not cause another stir at RG.


Lately we have seen some interests in GREENs yet again and much too often we as potential keepers are mesmerized by photo of before and after effect much like the daily dose of advertisements in our daily bureau showing some amazing results in sliming, breast enhancement and what not…..


This article is written for the benefit of newbies, novice and beginners and serves not as a deterrent nor an encouragement in the practice of green water management.It is not my intention to doubt the benefits of green but there are inherent dangers I feel that need to be addressed as the uninitiated may not realize what they may be in for and as such unnecessary loss of fish can be minimized if you would take time to understand this phenomenon.

To understand green water is to understand in short….algae,the most primitive form of life.Now the cultivation of green water in indirectly the cultivation of algae.Simple?
Not quite ,as we are dealing with not only a single species ,not even a few.In ideal environment which we try to replicate in our enclosed systems,algae proliferate massively to give the colorimetric green as an indicator of our success.But with such proliferation termed algae bloom come sudden death.(no penalty kicks,no extra time!!!!!)

Two factors related to oxygen depletion are the major causes

1)The absence of photosynthesis in the dark hours of the night result in oxygen uptake by plants instead of generating it
2)Sudden death of algae. Now this occurs naturally or through chemical intervention.As each species of algae compete for the same nutrients,death results as these nutrients are depleted and light source maybe shaded due to overwhelming proliferation of its population.With algae death,oxygen level falls and the oxygen generating force is eliminated and with its death comes decomposition which becomes oxygen consuming in nature.

The above scenario are often complicated by our tropical climate of rising temperature that impede the oxygen carrying capacity.That is why when the weather is warm,or if an algae problem exists, it is imperative that supplemental aeration be provided constantly, throughout the day and night.

Apart from the above ,a sudden surge in the population of these microscopic and planktonic critters may result in suffocation of your fishes as they may get lodged in their gills further hampering oxygen update.

Recent studies have also shown and gaining much recognition is the association of sudden death of fishes with algae………the much-dreaded fish-killing algae.. These fish-killing algal varietiescontain potent toxins that trigger sudden fish death. If a pond hosts these particularly virulent algae, devastating fish loss can result,
seemingly more so when a quick die-off of algal bloom occurs. The blooms discharge their toxins simultaneously, and some or all fish in the pond are adversely affected or killed.

So if you wake up in the morning with a pond or any enclosed water system that smells of death, look no further. The murderer of your beloved ones may just be the one you have so diligently and religiously cultivated for your fish benefits…………

regards

goldrush sick.gif sick.gif sick.gif
desireless
Halo Doc,

Thanks for shedding some light on algae bloom. While algae is good for goldfish, too intense of it is harmful to not just goldfish but other lifeforms living in it as well. The dangers, as you have mentioned are de-oxydization and the later "death phase" of algae cycle. It is just like taking too much of healthy chinese herbs or vitamins, which is bad for health. In fact, too much of anything useful, will result in the reverse effect.

Talking about algae bloom... Foremost, you must look at the bigger picture:
1) what factors triggle an algae bloom
2) where algae blooms usually occur

In short, algae blooms usually happen in the wild water bodies like rivers and lakes, which are surrounded by trees and man-made environment (like industrial areas). Bloom happens when there is a surge in algae food source. As we've discussed earlier, it is the increase in concentration of Ammonia, Nitrate, coupled with other less-popular traces like copper and zinc, etc, which serve as a big feast for the algae.

If you've been reading some algae bloom reports, you will realize the the trend of bloom occurence is during summer. Long hot summers, in fact. This natural phenomenon brings about big scale upset to the ecosystem around the lakes and rivers, for example grasslands drying up, and small-scale forest fires. Such upsets trigger decomposition and soil loosening up, resulting in an increment of traces elements like ammonia and it byproducts like nitrates, thereby nurturing a "traces bomb" ready to go off at anytime. When it rains, the bomb goes off. Such traces are being washed down to the rivers and lakes in hugh amount, thereby causing a surge in food source for algae. Coupled by the intense sunlight in such summer, the conditions of algae bloom are met.

It is also a common observation that during a bloom, the traces concentration will decline, bringing a collapse of the algae bloom. As this happens, decomposition (death phase of algae) takes place again, leading to the release of the nutrients, and hence a new round of bloom occurs.

====

This explains why there is a need to practise water change even to greenwater, as we have always advised hobbyists trying on green water method. Green water is not some magic water where you can leave your fish in for 3 months and then come back again to see your fish in superb condition. You NEED to change water regularly (weekly or bi-weekly, using the intensity of green as guideline) before the reverse effect steps in.

It has also been mentioned a few times before that the rule of overstocking applies to Green Water as well. Too much of fishes will result in high ammonia output which in turn will result in quick algae growth.

For hobbyists who advocate green water and uses ENCLOSED water containers like concrete pond or fibre-glass tank, there is no need to be hysterical about algae bloom as it seldom occurs, as long as you follow what is being preached on the subject of green water here.
goldrush
Apart from colormetric intensity as a visual guide another indication of impending fouling up would be appearing of two types of algae.The surface scum type with those bubble-trapped and the stringey weed type which proliferate in clear water.In my clear water wall algaed setup,the appearance of this stringey type signal to me for a total change to avoid a collapse of my system.I'm not too sure whether they would appear in a green setup as a reliable indicator.But I know surface scum is a good indicator of aged and staled water brewing towards trouble.A very experienced RG member who I had audience with recently told me you need to be a FARMER to understand algae culture in order to reap the benefits and weed out the unnecessary ones in this much -to -learn practice.

So in green water husbandry,there is a regimental protocol you need to adhere to in order to sustain and to maintain before you can obtain the benefits for your fishes.With ever changing and unpredictable external environmental factors to deal with,it would take alot of effort,faith and perseverence to achieve your goal.Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea{GREEN} in our busy modern lifestyle I suppose. peace.gif
CyberET
having experience both green & clear, small & large scale. green is so much easier to manage.. blardy filter takes so long to clean. (sorry, just spent 1hr cleaning up the koi filter laugh.gif, so i'm pretty bias against filter now)

green? just drain and top up, and you r good to ignore till its too green, or food ran out biggrin.gif
The Matrix
really so difficult meh ? how come i dun feel that way. just feed the fish only mah. change water only leh ...

what's the problem har ?
desireless
Yes, surface scums do occur to green water as well. During the hot and dry spells (like this coming few months in Singapore), where sunlight is of abundance, it will be a common sign. I am not sure if it has the same indication as what you have mentioned.

Contrary to your impression, maintainance of green water is simply
- Have air supply for the fish through the night.
- Change water regularly. Ensureenough seed for next brew
- Scrub away the wall algae IF somehow you see it building up.

Most of the time, like ET mentioned, it is just drain and top. It is certainly a few more steps lesser than maintaining my clear water tanks indoor.
The Matrix
there is never a constant in keeping the water. Everything increase or decrease or creating a cycle within the ecosystem. Doesn't that means controlling it is much more difficult ?

As long as one follow thru with a water change, control the fish load, understand the water, good aeration, understand the limiters, there should not be any problems. Similar to any other method, all the controls and limits are the same except the parameters might not be the same and there are always some undesireable disadvantage built-in in each of the method.

Most important is to understand the fish. Observe them and regulate accordingly with control the known undesireables and tuning the limiters.

Fine tune the process, be it outdoor or indoor. There is no fix rules.
goldrush
Drain and top is the easy part,but reading when to execute it is an art as environmental changes (like hours of sunshine )varies within months as well as days.I understand that most of the keepers here do not live near their green practice so there is this inherent danger of not able to monitor such changes which can be detrimental to counter unexpected changes.If algae is allowed to overrun such a practice the inevitable would be mass casualties encountered.I hope I'm wrong but do you guys have such disasters in your years of practice?(Anyway I do not expect an answer as many do not like to relive such a nightmare)
To minimise such an outcome a stocking ratio needs to be respected and dutifully subscribed and of course a generous supply of aeration should be the norm.

I remembered what the matrix once posted that green water may not be suitable for some and I totally agreed with that.
To the novice and average aquarist it may appear a great hassle but to the die-hard fans it become a routine indulgence.........A Cult that reads(if you allow me summarise with a slogan)

You need the green to groom
A bloom that'll be your boom
as well as your doom.............
sweatingbullets.gif sweatingbullets.gif sweatingbullets.gif
gohks
good_very.gif So much into the understanding of green water. I don't practice that (maybe unconciously doing that 30 yrs ago when I am still a kid, always got pissed and fad-up when my external cemented tank turn so green quickly after water change) but a believer of green water.
There was a discussion in other forum whether green water is good for "ALL" goldfishes but I don't get a good answer. I am particulary interested in how to groom black goldfish charcol black. There are people saying green water definetly a no for black goldfish and I would like to know is the statement true.
Goldrush, noticed you a fan of black Ranchu. Do you keep your fishes in clear or green water? Did you try keeping them in both and see the result. blink.gif
goldrush
Dear Goh

If you have followed me throughout all my posts, you would have realized all my fish are kept in
CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.I do not have the luxury of time to monitor green culture.However with recent interest in writing about green,I have reserved a 3 foot guppy tub for a green setup that I am struggling to maintain a constant shade of “ideal green”.I will be sharing with forum my various setup in addition to the above in my next topic.Just give me some time to upload and pen my thoughts.
As for my blacks ,again I have never exposed them to green water culture so I cannot comment on its success or deterioration.
As for improvement or deterioration of the fishes in any setup, I think I leave it up to them to speak for themselves. sweatingbullets.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(goldrush @ Mon, 24 Jul 2006 3:28 pm) *

Dear Goh

If you have followed me throughout all my posts, you would have realized all my fish are kept in
CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.I do not have the luxury of time to monitor green culture.However with recent interest in writing about green,I have reserved a 3 foot guppy tub for a green setup that I am struggling to maintain a constant shade of “ideal green”.I will be sharing with forum my various setup in addition to the above in my next topic.Just give me some time to upload and pen my thoughts.
As for my blacks ,again I have never exposed them to green water culture so I cannot comment on its success or deterioration.
As for improvement or deterioration of the fishes in any setup, I think I leave it up to them to speak for themselves. sweatingbullets.gif


wah liao ... after talking so much, ok .. stress again hor ... i very lor soh one har ...

THERE is NO IDEAL case, ther IS no constant. It's all depends on your management skill and observation power. Some can be very confident and know when to make adjustments. Some yet to find a way will need daily care.

That's why green water is never suitable for everyone. It will take a lot of guidance, hands-on and knowledge to start .Dare to make mistakes and learn from it.

Well, I must say I din get any massive casualties from the way I am keeping for the past few years. Of course, cannot say no fish die lah. Sure to have one. In most case are due to poor growth or weak fish. Hmmm ... come to think of it, I killed more fish than seeing natural death. dun touch the topic of killing ... tickle a lot of people nerves. tongue.gif

Keep the best, CULL the rest.


just a ponder ... if get too green, we drain and top up. what about those football field size ponds in china farms ? tens of million liter of water a pond !
CyberET
hmm.. 2 years liaoz, no massive deaths, except when i introduce unqurantine fish into my koi pond during the early days of fishing, which results in 2 koi deaths, and lots of money spent.. a lesson learned the hard way.
gohks
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon, 24 Jul 2006 6:07 pm) *


Keep the best, CULL the rest.
just a ponder ... if get too green, we drain and top up. what about those football field size ponds in china farms ? tens of million liter of water a pond !

That's very true, we are talking about complex management of green water but people just dump everything in the pond. smile.gif)

Well that leads to another question, whether we should adapt to the fish living or let the fish adapt to our keeping method nananana.gif if the latter is true, isn't that spells trouble for those who goes on rotation basis. thinking.gif
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