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shishirkamat
Hi,
While going through the forum i have seen many guys feeding their Goldies more than 5 times a day,some guys have been also feeding about 10 times as well.I have also read fishes are killed often due to over feeding than under feeding,is feeding so many times justified?and if yes,what would be the ideal safe food.
would like experts to comment
with warm regards
Shishir Kamat
CnT
I hv tried over-feeding my ranchus n hv paid dearly loosing some nice ones. I believe over-feeding causes gut impaction which leads to bacterial infection. Learned the hard way sad.gif

An ideal safe food would be any good quality pellet. One of the best, if not the best, is SakiHikari. I feed mainly SakiHikari n Hikari Lionhead.

I hv 15 ranchus of various sizes. I feed 2 tablespoonfull, twice a day. I try very hard not to feed more. Its difficult not to feed as they come up begging for food all the time.

My over-feeding regiment was 2 tablespoonfull every 2 hours. Hmm, mayb only at weekends?

Happy feeding yes.gif
bekko
.... but don't confuse the number of feedings per day with the total daily amount of feed or over-feeding. Giving a large number of small feedings per day is still a good thing to do - if you have time for it. The water quality problems arise when the total amount of feed applied exceeds what the tank/pond, filter and water change can assimilate.

Face facts, goldfish eat throughout the day whether we feed them or not. If there is not fresh feed available, they will pick around through the solid waste and wall algae and keep recycling stuff over and over. This is not a bad thing and, in some respects, is an efficient way to manage the tank/pond.

I am of the belief that goldfish cannot eat too much if they are given the correct balance of feed. However, every off-the-shelf goldfish pellet is too rich if you are going to give them all they will eat day after day. You have to either restrict the amount of feed so the fish must recycle the wastes several times or supplement the pellets with high-fiber, low-fat, low-protein feed stuffs. Supplementing the pellets with fresh leafy green vegetables is a good way to give the fish all they want to eat, while avoiding a diet which is too rich. If fresh vegetables are too cumbersome for you, then supplement the goldfish pellets with alfalfa pellets (rabbit food). You can change the proportion of high-fiber feed stuff and pellets to regulate growth and conformation.

Supplementing with fresh vegetables or dried alfalfa will increase the amount of solid waste which accumulates. The fiber passes through the digestive tract and ends up on the bottom of the tank. This is good for the fish, but puts some additional load on the assimilative capacity of the tank/pond and filter.

The issue of recycling solid waste is a delicate subject. Some people cannot stand the idea of precious pet eating its own excrement. I think the goldfish prefer to let the solid waste sit around for a few hours or days before eating it. As it sits there, the solid waste is attacked by bacteria, fungi and other microbes. Up to a point, the nutritional value of solid waste will increase as it becomes colonized with microbes. The microbes are breaking down the solid waste, but the bacteria have a gelatinous sheath which tends to stick micro-particles together. There is a whole other world down there that we are largely unaware of.

-steve
jimcity
I don't think feeding 5 times or more per day will kill the goldfish hmm.gif

You just need to control the amount of each of your feeding and monitor the water condition.

More feeding lead to faster deteriorate of water condition due to increase waste produced. As long as you monitor your water condition closely and change water more freqent, feeding more times will not kill the fish.
goldrush
QUOTE(bekko @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 1:46 pm) *




The issue of recycling solid waste is a delicate subject. Some people cannot stand the idea of precious pet eating its own excrement. I think the goldfish prefer to let the solid waste sit around for a few hours or days before eating it. As it sits there, the solid waste is attacked by bacteria, fungi and other microbes. Up to a point, the nutritional value of solid waste will increase as it becomes colonized with microbes. The microbes are breaking down the solid waste, but the bacteria have a gelatinous sheath which tends to stick micro-particles together. There is a whole other world down there that we are largely unaware of.

-steve


biggrin.gif Concept of biofilm both benefits and detrimental effects are very much real in our goldfish world as well

Here's a summary of the biofilm concept for a better understanding

http://xnet.rrc.mb.ca/davidb/biofilms.htm

and here is to recap what I have posted before

http://www.mvangel.com/microbe/white.htm

I think what kills goldfish is not the visible solid wastes which we can see but rather the invisible wastes that are left cumulative and unprocessed(due to lack of water change or over taxed filtration system)

Goldfish tends to feed throughout the day,browsing through every nooks and corners,siphoning every living and nonliving morsels,edible and inedible as well hmm.gif .The over hungry ones are usually the first to perish in such circumstances and notice they are always your favorites in terms of growth and vigour(Murphy's law explained wink.gif )
CyberET
its more of the water condition turning bad, rather than gut impaction..
the more u feed, the faster the water turns bad.
chandramerpati
I, myself, is doing high and frequent feeding regime. tongue.gif
I can feed more than 5-6 times for small & young fishes.

But, I always observe and maintain such parameters before doing my feeding regime:
1. The genetics of the fish: I only apply hi-feeding for the fish who has chance to go big/jumbo.
2. Water parameter: I do frequent water-changing to maintain the water parameter.
3. Space management: Only few number of fishes on big tube.
4. Fish healthiness: Never hi-feeding on sick fish (I would certainly fasting the sick fish).
5. Small amount: I always give small amount of pellets and BW
6. Give one day per week for the fish to rest (fasting)
7. Type of the food: Giving live daphnia for the babies/small fishes means 24 hours available but if we give pellets we have to give 2-3 hours interval for food's digestion and absorption.

So, if you can maintain and control these parameters, I think it is NO PROBLEM at all to do hi-feeding regime.
CMIIW..... wink.gif wink.gif
CnT
Thanks for sharing, can u provide more details of ur regiment?

QUOTE(chandramerpati @ Wed, 19 Dec 2007 1:18 pm) *

I, myself, is doing high and frequent feeding regime. tongue.gif
I can feed more than 5-6 times for small & young fishes.
Wat size is small&young? 2-3"?

But, I always observe and maintain such parameters before doing my feeding regime:
1. The genetics of the fish: I only apply hi-feeding for the fish who has chance to go big/jumbo.
2. Water parameter: I do frequent water-changing to maintain the water parameter.
How much, 100% change new water? How often, everyday?
3. Space management: Only few number of fishes on big tube.
How many is a few? How big is big tub?
4. Fish healthiness: Never hi-feeding on sick fish (I would certainly fasting the sick fish).
I agree yes.gif
5. Small amount: I always give small amount of pellets and BW
How much is small amount? in tablespoons? # of FBW cubes?
6. Give one day per week for the fish to rest (fasting)
I agree tis too, but very hard to practise hmm.gif
7. Type of the food: Giving live daphnia for the babies/small fishes means 24 hours available but if we give pellets we have to give 2-3 hours interval for food's digestion and absorption.

So, if you can maintain and control these parameters, I think it is NO PROBLEM at all to do hi-feeding regime.
CMIIW..... wink.gif wink.gif
CMIIW???
shishirkamat
Hi chandra,
Nice to chip in,i agree keeping the water clean solves most of the problems.There are some breeders who swear with homemade Gel feed, Something similar to what Doc has formulated.The breeder says his fishes have been on such high protein Gel feed and have been doing great in terms of good health and growth,the water has to be changed frequently due to clouding.
with warm regards
Shishir kamat
chandramerpati
Bro CnT,

1. Small fishes to me is under 10 cm (baby size) and under 4 months old. Usually my offsprings reached 9-10cm in 4 months.

2. Water changing regimen is 2 days 100% for babies. For bigger fish, I do 100% every 3-4 days. For jumbo fish, 7-10 days.

3. 2 x 1 meter fiber tube with 5 jumbo fishes.

4. I feed only 1 cube of BW for 1 jumbo fish or 2-3 pieces of Saki Hikari Growth pellet.

5. CMIIW: Correct Me IF I'm Wrong....


Bro shishir...
Please remember that clear and shiny water doesn't equal with good and clean water.
My WC regimen is settled for my feeding regimen after almost 2 years of goldfish keeping experience.
So, I suggest that you find your best suitable feeding and WC regimen of your own.
Good luck...

rgds,
Chandra peace.gif
hermanto
My feeding habit is like this:
1. Fry eats live food all the time, never stop.
2. Young fish eats high protein high fat pellets, in small amount, as frequent as possible - 5 times, 10 times, will be ok. 50% of protein and 10% of fat will be nice. After first feeding, I will come back at half an hour (if I can) and see if they are asking for food again. If so, I will give them again in small amount. This continue until age of 5 or 6 months. For specific fish that is not intended to breed and want to pump their size, I continue this treatmen up to 1 year old. But I dare not use this treatmen for fish more than 1.5 years. I also introduce live food in large amount.
3. I reduce the frequency of feeding for fishes above those ages. I give them enough amount of pellets only 2 to 3 times a day. Five times is the maximum number for me. I also change the pellets into less protein and less fat - I usually use hikari wheat germ for this moment. 30% protein and 4% fat will be perfect for me. I only use live food for breeding fish in this moment. i introduce color enhancer food as late as possible or I don't use it at all. Hikari excell is my favorite smile.gif

So, as conclusion, I feed young fish as many as possible with junk food, and as the fish mature, I feed healthier food with less frequency. The reason behind this is that young fish needs to grow fast and their health can still tolerate junks, but if I continue this treatmen for older fish, they will surely have short life. But if we provide them with healthy food since they were young, yes they can live a lot longer, but might be slow to grow and might not develop their full potent (such as: the wen in ranchu might not grow well, the body might not be thick, etc). So, we must balance that.

Regards,
Hermanto
CnT
Thanks for sharing ur feeding habits Hermanto good_very.gif

Can u roughly estimate how much pellet u feed per fish size? eg. one tablespoonfull per 4" fish? Feeding every half hours seems super alot to me, but i guess also depends how much is fed.

Wats ur stocking density like? how many fish length per tub size? also ur water change frequency?

So u feed floating pellets to ur gfs. Do u encounter issues with SBD from feeding floating pellets?

Thanks peace.gif
hermanto
Well, I don't do strict observation actually.
For the amount of pellets, I try to imagine how big is the stomach, and how much pellet can fit in comfortably there smile.gif I like to use medium size and large size koi pellets, because it is easier to count how many pellets the fish need. For a 10cm svr, I give 1 large size pellet for each fish, or 2 medium sized pellets. In about 15 minutes, they will ask for more. If I cannot give the food in short interval and can only give three times a day, then I will just give 3 large sized pellets for each fish.
Stocking density? Well, I try to imagine whether the fish can live comfortably or will they feel too crowded. That's all. Water changing? It depends. I have tubs with biological filter with seldom water changes, I also have tubs with clear water and just aerator that needs water changes almost everyday starting from 25% to 80% depends on the water condition that day. I think we can use our feeling and imagination to answer these questions as an alternative to mathematical standards smile.gif Easier smile.gif
None of SBD issue. What I sometimes have is bloating stomach due to too much junk food for mature fish.

Regards,
Hermanto
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