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ninjaturtle
hey everyone, im new to this board in hopes to get some tips on goldfish keeping

anyway here is my problem, i went to the LFS the other day in hopes of getting 1 black and 1 gold ranchu as a pair. but when i got there, the 2-3" specimen was barely black, it was a bronze color with black rims. so my 1st question is, Will it turn blacker as he ages? or will it be his color forever? maybe too young so thats why still bronze?

another question is, if i fed the black and gold ranchu on hikari lionhead, will this make the black even more red or bronze becuz of the color enhancer?

sorry for newbie question as im new, hope u guys can help! thanks in advance
bekko
There is probably no way to tell for sure if the fish has poor black because of genetics or environment/diet. I suspect that if the fish had the potential to be blacker, it would have been sold after being conditioned to be as black as the fish's genetics would allow. I have always assumed that black goldfish are sold as soon as they show the first signs of loosing the black. That is the point where they bring the highest price to the breeder.

No color enhancer. Doc may have additional tricks, but here is one...http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...=5122&st=15

Does hard water and high alkalinity help hold black in goldfish like it does in koi?

-steve
goldrush
Hey Steve I ain't no David Copperfield ...so no tricks or illusion

Personnally I find upkeeping blacks very challenging as they are sensitive to a few environmental parameters.They tend to retain their blacks longer in relatively cooler temperature and in dark based tubs.However if you throw them in full sun and in dark based tubs,they don't hold too well(probably due to escalating temperature).Now melanophores are found to expand in dark phases and shrink in light environment as well.So within limits we can manipulate the environmental factors to suit these breed apart from abstaining from color enhancing feeds.Of course least to say the genetic part is beyond our control ohmy.gif

Now these were kept indoor,in cool temperature and in black bottomed tub





http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4953


And the same fish are housed in light bottomed tub(blue) when they are housed outdoor





I am not too sure of higher alkalinity that can bring out the blacks in goldfish as documented in Utsuris and Showas in koi rusure.gif
chandramerpati
Doc,
Is the box in the middle of the fiber tube contains coral chips?
Are they supposed to enhance the alkalinity level?

Thanks
goldrush
I put zeolites and coral chips in the container.The zeolites for residual ammonia and the coral chips act more for buffering.Not sure rusure.gif whether increase alkalinity benefits the black.??????But so far so goooood good_very.gif
chandramerpati
Doc,
I have talked to Hermanto and he said that coral chips increased water hardness.
High water hardness is good for black color.
But, on the other hand, high water hardness is not good for breeding reason.

Since I will apply it into my black ranchu offsprings to enhance their black color and no need in a hurry for breeding them. yes.gif yes.gif

Btw, any further tips and tricks on using the zeolith and coral chips?
Thanks.
goldrush
So the coral chips has dual function here good_very.gif

Time to pour more chips!!!!!!! happydance1.gif
lyc
QUOTE(goldrush @ Fri, 28 Sep 2007 5:02 pm) *

Hey Steve I ain't no David Copperfield ...so no tricks or illusion

Personnally I find upkeeping blacks very challenging as they are sensitive to a few environmental parameters.They tend to retain their blacks longer in relatively cooler temperature and in dark based tubs.However if you throw them in full sun and in dark based tubs,they don't hold too well(probably due to escalating temperature).Now melanophores are found to expand in dark phases and shrink in light environment as well.So within limits we can manipulate the environmental factors to suit these breed apart from abstaining from color enhancing feeds.Of course least to say the genetic part is beyond our control ohmy.gif

Now these were kept indoor,in cool temperature and in black bottomed tub
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4953
And the same fish are housed in light bottomed tub(blue) when they are housed outdoor

I am not too sure of higher alkalinity that can bring out the blacks in goldfish as documented in Utsuris and Showas in koi rusure.gif


ur blackie very nice..i find it hard to get gd speciman as either the body shape or the tail is out of portional for black ranchu
goldrush
Have patience.You can find them in reputable LFS but there is a premium to pay for those that can grow big.Most will stall at 4 to 5 inch from poor bloodlines.However it may never grow beyond 7 inch(I guess).....not including Chinese blacks of course!
bekko
Today, some guys in our local club were saying that black ranchu need a lot of sunlight to maintain or improve black color and they will turn bronze when put inside, This so?

-steve
goldrush
QUOTE(bekko @ Sun, 21 Oct 2007 4:31 pm) *

Today, some guys in our local club were saying that black ranchu need a lot of sunlight to maintain or improve black color and they will turn bronze when put inside, This so?

-steve


It really depends on the origin of the fish.Chinese blacks are more susceptible to color fading especially in poor water environment and lack of sunshine..However the Thai blacks are more resistant to color changes even when kept in minimal sunshine setup but under good optimal water conditions.These are my own personal findings.
ninjaturtle
at my lfs, there are 2"-3" bronze color ranchus, should i still buy it? will it ever turn black?
bekko
The breeder can read the tea leaves better than the comsumer. If the breeder thought it was going to grow up to be a beautiful black ranchu, then they would have grown it themself so it would be worth more money when sold.

-steve
goldfishpassion
What i have learn about keeping or developing the blackness on Thai Black Ranchu are:

Keep them in the Glass tank with bare bottom where they can get sunlight and the temperature must be somewhere around 75-82F
while feeding with no color enhancer(which everybody know this)
The reason that you need Glass tank because of the sunlight can reflect the bare bottom to give sunlight to its belly.
It is the new thing i learn in this topic that water hardness have play important role in its blackness.
CnT
How to maintain black colors? I hv ranchus whose black coloring slowly turns to gold with time. Wats the secret to keeping black-black? I hv heard keep in low temp 24-25C, n hi hardness 5KH, n feed non-color enhanced food.

How to maintain white colors? I hv ranchus whose snow white wen slowly turns to off-white/yellow with time. Just the wen, the body still nice white-white. How to keep the wen white-white?

Do these pellets hv color enhancer? Saki Hikari Basic, green pack. And Tropical Spirulina granules.

Thanks wacko.gif
bekko
I suspect there are color enhancers in all goldfish pellets. Even if they are not put there for color enhancement, many high quality ingredients like krill and seaweed have pigments which act as color enhancers. Different feeds will have different amounts of color enhancers, but I do not know how to evaluate the degree of color enhancement except by trial and error.

A guy in our club told me to put my black ranchu in a more sunny spot to help maintain the black color. I did, and it worked. Within a few weeks they regained the black which they were losing from being inside.

There is another recent thread here somewhere on the subject of maintaining black.

Feed also impacts white, but I do not know about the wen in particular. Again, you want to minimize color enhancers in the feed. Corn is especially bad about turning white to a yellowish color. You can always just call your fish "lemon head". That seems to be a popular marketing ploy.

-steve
hermanto
I think wheatgerm pellet is good for black ranchu and white ranchu. The advertisement said it is free from color enhancer and is good at enhancing the white color of koi or goldfish.
The black color is influenced by how pure the genetic is. The purer the black, the black color will never change though it may still fade into light dark. Hardness, temperature, and sunshine will help the fading black into solid black again, but if the gene is not pure enough, then the turning to yellow cannot be help. We might still be able to delay the turning to be not so quick by those methods, so we can enjoy having a black gold ranchu for longer time.

Regards,
Hermanto
Kinder
Hi all,

something that i noticed today while doing my routine WC, while i was putting my calicos back into the new water after WC.....i noticed how their black colour on their tails n body went to a faded black/brownish colour....and right after putting them in the new water with in minutes that faded colour went back to black...i was surprised.

I havent noticed this at all before with my other fishes, these calicos are Chinese and i recently got them...im sure its stress related but the question arises are chinese calico more susceptible to stress (just a thought) or possibly could be that my cat was minding them throughout the WC...
bekko
The pigment cells respond to the background color too. Do you put them in a container with light color background during water change?

-steve
Kinder
Yeah this time around i put them in white Styrofoam box, coz my usual plastic tub was not available. And after WC back in to my clear water tank.

Can you explain this phenomenon of pigment cells responding to backgound colors...cheers

Kinder
bekko
The pigment cells are called chromatophores. The color can spread to completely cover the surface of the cell, or the color can contract to just a small dot. The expansion and contraction happens in response to background color like the camouflage on a chameleon.

-steve
Kinder
QUOTE(bekko @ Wed, 26 Dec 2007 6:34 am) *

The pigment cells are called chromatophores. The color can spread to completely cover the surface of the cell, or the color can contract to just a small dot. The expansion and contraction happens in response to background color like the camouflage on a chameleon.

-steve



and this not necessarily mean the fish is in stress's?
goldrush
For those who like to read more about colors and the factors that may enhance or deteriorate it ,here is an article of which may of interest to some readers here

http://www.scienceline.ucsb.edu/search/DB/...ory=&start=
bekko
QUOTE
and this not necessarily mean the fish is in stress's?
I think that moving the fish for a water change is always a stress, regardless of the color of the container. I partially drain and refill leaving the fish in the tank/pond. Better yet, use a very slow continuous drip/trickle of new water 24/7.

-steve
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