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32Bit_Fish
I was looking at the pics of my goldfish which they were taken several months ago when I first got them.

One of the fish that I bought from pet store, his wen gotten so much smaller. The difference is like day and night. I dont know what happened. I feed him progold in the morning and hikari frozen food at night. A lot of you were telling me that I'm overfeeding my fish, but why his wen gotten so much smaller n there is no wen growth even when I have been overfeeding them? They suppose to be overweight, not the other way around. This just doesn't make any sense to me.

Now I feel like I need to feed more frequent or the other possibility is the seller injected hormone to the wen area try to make a sell.

I bought the fish couple hours after he arrived at the my LFS, so either the breeder or the middle person done something to the fish. Otherwise, I couldn't figure out why this is happening to my fish.

All my fish have lengthen, but the wen growth has been going backwards.

Does anyone have any idea about what I'm talking about?
goldrush
Hi there

When I started with goldfish I do encounter the same problem.This got nothing to do with genetics,nor injectibles,special diet or hidden secrets.Deterioration can only be acquired.The number one culprit is water and space given.

Goldfish need space to grow and so does its wen.A confined space with overcrowding can retard any growth(wen inclusive)The secretion of protein based pheromones will retard any growth as well.Water parameters especially sky rocketing reading of NITRATES will hamper wen development(hence the need for frequent water changes)


Genetics aside,wen development can be enhanced through diet(good protein source like bloodworms,high quality pellets)only if the above are met.Hope that answer your query

doc
32Bit_Fish
Sorry, I probably need to be alittle more informative in my post.. I should give a little specs of my set up and stocking info before posting the problem.

I have a 38 G barebuttom tank with three 5" lionheads. They have been in my tank for the past 3 months.

There are two HOB Power filters running on the tank, each of them has a water turn over rate of 300GPH, so total of 600 GPH turn over rate, that equivlent to 10x+ turnover rate filtration.

I feed goldfish dry pellet (Progold that are well know high quality goldfish food in U.S) in the morning and I feed Hikari Frozen bloodworm, brineshrimp and Mysis at night. I feed twice a day during weekdays and three times a day during weekend.

I do 80-90% w/c twice a week and nitrate level kept at constant of 7 PPM.

My questions are am I overstocking? have been feeding proper food? need more w/c due to dirty water?

I dont see I have any of the problems/possible causes that you mentioned in your post. That's why I'm very confused. I am hoping I have been doing something wrong to cause this problem, so I can correct it.

But I couldn't find any at this point.
GlassGoldfish
I would put those 3 fish in 140 gal. outdoor pond and allow green water to develop, then your fish will grow like crazy. I buy these Tough-stuff brand livestock troughs at the farm supply stores for about $75 each. All you need is an airstone in there w/ water changes. Then get a 75 gallon tank for those 3 fish during the wintertime. Don't up your filtration on the 75, tho. You must find a balance between filtration and water current, especially with weak swimmers like lionheads. Those old grandmas that preach the 10x filtration rate here in the usa don't consider the ill-effects of water current.

I would include a soybean into your food regiment. The fad in the usa is to feed green peas, but soybeans are higher in protein and lower in sugars. I get the ones that are already shelled. They need to be thawed, peeled and chopped up.

Good luck!

32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(GlassGoldfish @ Tue, 08 Jul 2008 1:16 pm) *

I would put those 3 fish in 140 gal. outdoor pond and allow green water to develop, then your fish will grow like crazy. I buy these Tough-stuff brand livestock troughs at the farm supply stores for about $75 each. All you need is an airstone in there w/ water changes. Then get a 75 gallon tank for those 3 fish during the wintertime. Don't up your filtration on the 75, tho. You must find a balance between filtration and water current, especially with weak swimmers like lionheads. Those old grandmas that preach the 10x filtration rate here in the usa don't consider the ill-effects of water current.

I would include a soybean into your food regiment. The fad in the usa is to feed green peas, but soybeans are higher in protein and lower in sugars. I get the ones that are already shelled. They need to be thawed, peeled and chopped up.

Good luck!


Yeah, I wish I have a house with a big backyard, so I can have alot of goldfish live in a big pond. It's my dream, unfortunately I live in NYC and I do not have the luxury to do so. If putting the fish in a pond outdoor is only way to promote their growth, then I think keeping goldfish is a wrong hobby I got into.

I thought a goldfish needs 10-20 gallon of water in order for them to grow to their potential, no?
GlassGoldfish
10/20 gallons per fish is a good rule to help newbies wrap their heads around just how much water goldfish really need. How many people get into the goldfish hobby and put 5 goldfish in a ten gallon tank? Lots, I bet. These rules of 10/20 gallons per fish are a way to get people thinking differently about goldfish, and I would consider it the minimum, not the ideal for growing to their max potential. I've read that ryukins require over 100 gallons each if you want them to grow over 6/7 inches.

I don't think an outdoor pond is the ONLY way to get them to thrive. However, it is damn effective.
Do you have a balcony or porch?
32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(GlassGoldfish @ Tue, 08 Jul 2008 1:40 pm) *

10/20 gallons per fish is a good rule to help newbies wrap their heads around just how much water goldfish really need. How many people get into the goldfish hobby and put 5 goldfish in a ten gallon tank? Lots, I bet. These rules of 10/20 gallons per fish are a way to get people thinking differently about goldfish, and I would consider it the minimum, not the ideal for growing to their max potential. I've read that ryukins require over 100 gallons each if you want them to grow over 6/7 inches.

I don't think an outdoor pond is the ONLY way to get them to thrive. However, it is damn effective.
Do you have a balcony or porch?


I live in a small apartment. I probably need to start buying lottery and if I'm really really lucky and hit the jackpot. Then I can buy a house with a big backyard for my poor fish. blush.gif
small_ranchu
I hear you buddy. I still put 90, 60 and 29 g tank in my apartment. I have 3 fish in 90, 2 in 60 and 1 in 29. smile.gif
32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(small_ranchu @ Tue, 08 Jul 2008 3:05 pm) *

I hear you buddy. I still put 90, 60 and 29 g tank in my apartment. I have 3 fish in 90, 2 in 60 and 1 in 29. smile.gif


Fred,

I'm sure your apartment is bigger than mine.

BTW, would you mind come take care my fish while I travel oversea? biggrin.gif
small_ranchu
no problem, if you trust my skill.
32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(small_ranchu @ Tue, 08 Jul 2008 3:45 pm) *

no problem, if you trust my skill.


of course, u r the pro man.. good_very.gif
bekko
Has the wen actually gotten smaller, or does it just look smaller because the rest of the fish is larger?

I agree with the comments above..... When it comes to goldfish, space is everything.

-steve
pangjcc
It will be good if you can show the before and present photos, preferably from the top.

I suspect your fish are suffering from parasites. I kept two red cap oranda in a 30 liters tank with green water and air stone for 6 months and their wen became so big I sent them away.

Johnson
32Bit_Fish
The wen gotten smaller.. When I first purchased the fish, his wen is like perfect square from topview. Now it is like an arrow head from topview.

I have to admit the fish has fluke and I started treating him since last week.

Could fluke sucking out all the nutrient from the fish, hence restrain the fish's growth?
32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(pangjcc @ Wed, 09 Jul 2008 2:34 am) *

I kept two red cap oranda in a 30 liters tank with green water and air stone for 6 months and their wen became so big I sent them away.

Johnson


Are you sure it was 30 liter, not 300 liter? 30 liter = 8 gallon for two goldfish and you see growth of the wen?
pangjcc
Yes, 30 liters and 2 feedings with pellets daily. The 2 fish had grown from 2 to 5 inches with out of proportion wen. Some people find that attractive! mad.gif

Johnson
32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(pangjcc @ Wed, 09 Jul 2008 7:16 pm) *

Yes, 30 liters and 2 feedings with pellets daily. The 2 fish had grown from 2 to 5 inches with out of proportion wen. Some people find that attractive! mad.gif

Johnson


so the saying of goldfish would get stunned in growth if they kept in a small space. Like in your case, you had two goldfish in a less than 10g container and they still grown from 2" to 5"?

So the theory isn't true then. regardless where you going to raise the goldfish, they will still grow to its potential size.
small_ranchu
I will consider it as an exceptional case.
pangjcc
QUOTE


It is the water that really matter.

Johnson
pangjcc
[quote]

It is exceptional.

The 2" fish were 8 months old and stunned before I bought them. A practice to ensure continuous supply of small cheap popular fish all year round. After these fish were bought and kept in good water some of these fish grew to 4 or 5 " and stopped for ever!

Johnson
32Bit_Fish
Guys,

Take a look at the pics below. They are the same fish and first couple pics were taken on 3/26/08 and latter ones were taken couple days ago. Can you see the big difference in wen area?

IPB Image



IPB Image



IPB Image



Can anyone tell me how to fix this problem? I was suspecting the seller have been feeding some hormone or injections to the fish. Otherwise, I couldn't figure out the problem.

However, the fish might infected by fluke when he was in the fish store. I didn't treat him until last week. So that's almost 3 months without treatment for fluke/parasites. Could this be the reason?



thomas_n
thanks for posting the photos. I'm a newbie too so I find the photos very interesting. It's amazing how fast the wen deteriorated.

Goldrush solved your problem though and gave you the remedy in one, it's lack of space and poor water quality.
related thread:
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...hl=high+nitrate

32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(thomas_n @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 1:43 am) *

thanks for posting the photos. I'm a newbie too so I find the photos very interesting. It's amazing how fast the wen deteriorated.

Goldrush solved your problem though and gave you the remedy in one, it's lack of space and poor water quality.
related thread:
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...hl=high+nitrate


No way it's a poor water quality issue. Maybe lack of tank space.

When I first purchase the fish, I put him in a 20g by himself for a month. Then he was in a 10g for couple weeks. Now he is with other two lionheads in a 38G tank.

I always maintain the nitrate under 10 PPM before a w/c. I do 80-90% w/c twice a week. And you are telling me I have a poor water quality issue?

The only thing I could think of since the fish was in my LFS's tank for a day. And my LFS tank is full of parasites/bacteria and I didn't fully sterilize the fish after the purchase. Possible he is having some health issue.

bekko
The fish looks healthier now than it did back in March - aside from those small wen infections under the eye. Those are like acne in a teenager and are not generally too serious.

I think it would be a mistake to start medicating the fish without knowing what you are treating for.

-steve
32Bit_Fish
QUOTE(bekko @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 3:36 pm) *

The fish looks healthier now than it did back in March - aside from those small wen infections under the eye. Those are like acne in a teenager and are not generally too serious.

I think it would be a mistake to start medicating the fish without knowing what you are treating for.

-steve


Yeah, the fish was able to recover from these small wen infections by himself without any medication. I believe it was secondary infection from gill fluke some sore. Currently the tank is being treated with Prazi.

I added a medium size air bar into the tank and all the fish became very active. I never knew the air bubbles are so important and never realize my tank was underoxygenized. I had a hydro sponge filter in the tank only previously with a very small air stone installed in the filter which it generates very few air bubbles.
churico4ever
Hi 32,

It think your got a poor water quality and maybe your fish is in stressed conditions or placed in a noisy environment, let me give you an example... its like a person going to the gym everyday puping his muscle and working really hard... taking good vitamins and muscle builder suppliments but he got lack of sleep, his Job is in too much pressure, no peace of mind, equals to heavy stress... so he will not grow his muscle and this is a fact... so in your case I think the wen is getting smaller because of this similar cases.. try to relax your fish..

Rico
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