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HappyBuddha
One of the pet peeve of cultivating green water from scratch is subjecting the fishes to stress associated with high ammonia level.

Sis Kingyoo once mentioned that she cultivates her green water outdoor using just pellets and no fish.

I've been wanting to try the fishless method but a previous attempt failed misery when I didn't aerate the small tub and the pellets fermented! Puke.

This time with the sunny days, I decide to try again.

First, I use liquid fertilizer meant for planted tanks. It was probably the wrong type of fertilizer. The water kept getting browner and browner. I gave it up after a week.

Next, I use poos. One day worth of poos from 4 ranchus (that were fed mainly bloodworms and some pellets the day before). I setup a small bottle (which is actually my BBS hatchery setup). Filled it with freshly dechlorinated tap water. Aerate it and placed it on my window's ledge with morning sun (9 am to around noon.)

The classic green water cultivation cycle happened except significantly faster; day 2 the water turned cloudy. Day 3 slightly green. Day 4... as shown below. Yup... 4 days instead of up to 2-3 weeks if I had cultivated from scratch using the old way.

biggrin.gif

I should remind you that you probably should not attempt this unless you know your setup, whether artificially lit or placed outdoor, can sustain green water. You may cultivate green water from scratch this way easily, but unless you want to keep guppy in that small bottle, you better make sure your intended setup can continue to cultivate green water after you use these virgin green water as seed.

Finally... why did I use poo instead of pellets? I want speed... and I figured poos can produce ammonia faster than slowly decomposing pellets.

Cheers. wink.gif

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HappyBuddha
I am reminded that I should start using the virgin green water asap before the ammonia is depleted, and the green water collapse.

I should add that on day 3, I added another day's worth of poo into the bottle.

Also, the pic was shot under very bright sunlight, and the bottle is a mere 3 inches in diameter -- the green water thus appeared in the pic much lighter than it really is. If you look closely, the dark blue coloured air-stone, suspended in the middle of the bottle, cannot be seen.
desireless
clap.gif clap.gif clap.gif
Oh yeah! The days of stressing fishes for green water cultivation are finally over!!!

Wonder if it works indoor... unsure.gif
Let me try once I get another PL light set
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(desireless @ Thu 15 Apr 2004 12:45 PM)
clap.gif  clap.gif  clap.gif
Oh yeah! The days of stressing fishes for green water cultivation are finally over!!!

Wonder if it works indoor... unsure.gif
Let me try once I get another PL light set

smile.gif

Doing it indoors? It should work too but perhaps not as quickly.

But then, I'm sure you can put that bottle somewhere around your apt with direct sunlight and save yourself some trouble doing it artificially. wink.gif

Just make sure you find a way to aerate it for two reasons I could think of: you need the nutrient to flow around, and algae takes in DO at night.
nobnoba
i am currently doing a similar project. but no aeration.
i just put a jar of water added with fish poos (2 fish worth of poos) and just leave it in the sun.
the poos start to dissolved and turn into 'green smoke-like shape' in the jar unsure.gif . the algae does not dispersed. is it the same or not with greenwater? i tried to swirl and shake the jar so that the smoke-like shape dispersed evenly, but it wont. hmm.gif Could the smoke-like is actually greenwater in another form? perhaps because of no aeration, it is having a hard time dissolving in water? i need experts opinion on this, since this is my first attempt on greenwater sad.gif

i agree that using aeration is faster good.gif . because i am doing another project with my unused fish tank. i put 2 healthy ranchus there and using aeration 24 hours and direct afternoon sunlight (about 4-5 hours direct sunlight). both projects start the same time, but the one with aeration experienced no trouble at all.
Seacucumber
i know it may sound gross, but a little bit of our own urine might be the fastest....
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Fri 16 Apr 2004 02:13 AM)
i am currently doing a similar project. but no aeration....

I'm no expert in any way...

Like I mentioned earlier, I used pellets but without aeration they fermented.

Aeration is important as bro laser told me that nutrient must flow around the container for the algae to feed on. Without aeration, they sink to the bottom in the stagnant water.

Even more important is the fact all living things (well, I'm not quite sure if this is true) need oxygen or dissolved oxygen. Algae gives out DO during day time but don't forget that during nite time they reverse the process and release carbon dioxide when they take in DO. Without DO, they die. It's really as simple as that.

Hence I suggest you throw away that bottle and start afresh making sure you provide aeration. yes.gif
Amos
Hello Happybuddha

After reading about green water in the forum, I cultivated some using the method outlined here. I am surprised and proud to say now I have a small bottle of green water after just two days.

I'm writing to ask if it's okay for me to pour the green water into my filtered tank? I gathered that real green water does not require filtration but would it be okay nevertheless?

Regards
Amos
desireless
QUOTE(Amos @ Fri 23 Apr 2004 07:34 AM)
Hello Happybuddha

After reading about green water in the forum, I cultivated some using the method outlined here.  I am surprised and proud to say now I have a small bottle of green water after just two days.

I'm writing to ask if it's okay for me to pour the green water into my filtered tank?  I gathered that real green water does not require filtration but would it be okay nevertheless?

Regards
Amos

No. Fishless Green Water Cultivation is a advance level of green water cultivation from the orginal article written here:

How To Cultivate Green Water From Scratch

Your green water algae will not likely survive the Filtered system in your current tank.

So just follow that article above to set up the tub for normal green water cultivation. Since you already have the green water seed in that bottle, you can skip the KICK START stage where your fishes are usually stressed.
mrchoco
anyway I heard that BB dies when exposed to light. So green water still have BB? if no filter is used. If filter is some how used, maybe add some JYP to kill off the BB so that the green water can survive?

Just some suggestions to experiment with.
CyberET
wouldn't JYP affect green water as well? unsure.gif
mrchoco
hmm..
true hor.
some algae classified as cyno bacteria.
or some similar term.
hmm..
can try lor.
pour JYP into greenwater see will collapse or not.
i haven't try yet. cos i dun want to reset my filter.
desireless
Fishless green water Project #2:

Following same method as bro HB, this is a similar project for indoor, using PL light.

Very simple and small setup. I started out using very small amount of de-chlorined water, in a 1 litre guppy tank. With just air stone, drop a few Hikari sinking pellets. Then let the PL light run for 24hr non-stop. The whole projects took about 8 before I see green.

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Pic 1& 2: Day 0. The setup requires very small space.

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Pic 3: Day 3. The pellets "dissolved". No green yet.

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Pic 4: Day 5. I added new dose of Hikari pellets. Can already see green algae collect by the sides of tank. This is wall algae which is to be removed. Just use hand to rub away the algae. I used net to scoop away the pieces of wall algae.

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Pic 5: Day 7. By this time, I can already see the water turning pale green. The algae is still not riped but I have decided to end the project here. I poured the water into another tank with 30litre of water. Threw a fish inside and continue to shine the water with same PL light for another 3 days non-stop to see full green. After that I added more de-chlorined water into that tank to my desired amount.

WHY THIS?
For these 2 fishless projects, you need not stress your fish in the 8-day kick-start period where ammonia level is usually high.
CyberET
does the water clear up partly if u turn off the aeration for an hour?
desireless
I didn't try. Does it matter?
CyberET
yes smile.gif
desireless
How? unsure.gif

BTW, this is how it look like in my 30 litre brew after 3 days with fish. I don't think the algae is fully matured yet

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mountain
matured algea?? wa .. now i am bloody confused .. cry.gif
how to tell?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(desireless @ Wed 16 Jun 2004 05:52 PM)
How? unsure.gif

I think what ET is trying to find out is whether your alage were dead.

There's one difference in fishless green water cultivation that we must not overlook. In tradtional cultivation, fresh supplies of ammonia is provided by the fishes on a daily basis. When there's no fish involved, the ammonia provided by rotting pellets will be depleted by the developing algae. When there's no food for the algae, they die.

So it's important to replenish the ammonia producing pellets in fishless green water cultivation or risk seeing dead algae that settle down when there's no aeration in stagnant water. Eons ago I capped a small bottle of green water and kept it in a dark closet for 2 weeks. Without food/sunlight/DO, needless to say the algae are dead when I took the bottle out of the closet. What I found was settlements of green algae on the bottle's floor and the water is now clear. Shaking the bottle a few times "blended" the dead algae and the clear water returned to *almost* the same green water tint it used to be. So when your algae is dead yet with current circulating them, it will be hard to tell.

wink.gif
olddog
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 16 Jun 2004 10:43 AM)


In tradtional cultivation, fresh supplies of ammonia is provided by the fishes on a daily basis.  When there's no fish involved, the ammonia provided by rotting pellets will be depleted by the developing algae.  When there's no food for the algae, they die.


As far as I understand "Biomature" made by waterlife research is a pure fish safe amonia based bio load mix. If it kick starts BB it should also kick start green water.

http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/biomature.htm

Forrest.
square_guy
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 05:25 AM)
As far as I understand "Biomature" made by waterlife research is a pure fish safe amonia based bio load mix. If it kick starts BB it should also kick start green water.

http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/biomature.htm

Forrest.

actually chemical ammonia can be introduced into the water via ammonia bicarbonate (and you get to buffer the water at the same time laugh.gif ) which is available in baking store. question is, can this be used to kick start green water? I have people saying that it wouldn't work as they have tried and failed. I haven't try this yet, so I can't really comment.

regarding the "Biomature", if there are already fishes in the tank, why need it then for cycling? If there isn't any fish, why make it fish safe? sounds to me another fancy stuff we dun need hmm.gif
olddog
QUOTE(square_guy @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 01:12 AM)

regarding the "Biomature", if there are already fishes in the tank, why need it then for cycling? If there isn't any fish, why make it fish safe? sounds to me another fancy stuff we dun need  hmm.gif

Biomature is used to prep hospital tank filters to be on standby to take in fish without stress (NTS). Its also used to mature new set ups without fish present. Fish then go into the matured tank with no stress.
The point of the product is its capacity to mature tanks prior to adding the fish.
square_guy
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 09:51 AM)
Biomature is used to prep hospital tank filters to be on standby to take in fish without stress (NTS). Its also used to mature new set ups without fish present. Fish then go into the matured tank with no stress.
The point of the product is its capacity to mature tanks prior to adding the fish.

I have to admit that i didn't read the link tongue.gif

nonetheless, why use that when a much cheaper alternative (ammonium bicarbonate) is available?

it is like paying much more to buy diluted sodium thiosulphate solution (aka the usual anti-chlorine) when you can get sodium thiosulphate crystal at a lower price. I think that the commercial side of this hobby is filled with so many of such products.
olddog
QUOTE(square_guy @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 04:26 AM)
I think that the commercial side of this hobby is filled with so many of such products.

Yes I take your point. The situation is a bit like the black water extract sold to discus keepers in the UK. It’s basically a stew of peat and old leaves!!!!

We have a saying in England that sums the situation up…… “Money for old rope”
HappyBuddha
I also must admit I'm not reading that link too. I'm not fluent in science/chemistry the works... but I understand from bros that it's still not technically possible to package BB. There are ways but it's too costly for commerical success.

As for specifically using ammonia bicarbonate... those of you itching to try it out should be glad to know bro square already did.

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=840

I think the conclusion is it doesn't really work.
square_guy
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 05:14 PM)
I think the conclusion is it doesn't really work.

not! I haven't reach a conlcusion yet! mad.gif

To be frank, I didn't have time to do a proper documentation of the whole process. It does reduce ammonia introduced by the ammonium bicarbonate to safe level during the fishless cycling, but I am not sure how the filter fare when fishes are introduced. laugh.gif

my place is under renovation and everything is in a mess, including my tanks and tub unsure.gif
jowy_ham
Hi green water Bros,

I shall continue here with my green water cultivation progress here ( http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...topic=522&st=60
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...topic=522&st=75 )

10 Jun - 26 Jun, 2 weeks liao, still no green water mad.gif , only green algae, refer to pic.

Using Mozoo 55W PL tube ( from C328 ), on for more than 12 Hrs daily but not fix ( as in sometimes I on 24 Hrs, sometimes, I on for 13 Hrs but definitely more than 12 Hrs )

Y har ???

Should I re-start or continue ?

What else needs to been done ?

Please advise. beg2.gif beg2.gif

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white horse T1
check yr lamp again if PL lamp or FL light.

if ok.fish or fishless method never mind. must have ammonia.

re-start the whole thing again. should be achievable in 8 -9 days.

make sure no one or no good samaritan at home switch off yr light during brewing process.
jowy_ham
Just throw away my tank of algae water today, will try again but not now.

No one switch off the light during the process but dunno why just couldn't get it right.

Will try again when I get some small health GFs ( Oranda which I saw in Pasir ris farmway )

BTW, how to check whether lamp is PL / FL ? cos I not electrical guy.
desireless
FL and PL is referring to the light TUBE shape. FL means filament tube. The ones that you see in coffee shop and everywhere else. You will see that your Mozoo light tube is DUAL tube... that's PL already.

You have to get the Mozoo light set with WHITE/WHITE PL tube. It should cost $35 at C328. Don't get the cheap one at $28. That's only PINK/WHITE light which is not bright enough. Another I think at $32 house the BLUE/WHITE tube, which is also not bright enough.

Also note that for Mozoo/Enqing brand light set, ONLY the 2-ft light set comes with 55 watts ebalast. 3 ft and 4 ft are 18Watts and 36Wx2 resp.

If you have the correct light set, then you have to run the light for 24-7 to see the green kick in by 7-9 days.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(jowy_ham @ Sun 27 Jun 2004 02:26 AM)
Using Mozoo 55W PL tube ( from C328 ), on for more than 12 Hrs daily but not fix ( as in sometimes I on 24 Hrs, sometimes, I on for 13 Hrs but definitely more than 12 Hrs )

You didn't show your lamp in the pic....

Since it's fishless, don't put your lamp on top of the tub but let it sit by the side so that light penetration into the tank is direct and intense.
desireless
Oh.. so it is FISHLESS nor....

Have you been re-dosing enough pellets to make sure there is enough nutrients for the green to kick start?
jowy_ham
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue 29 Jun 2004 12:23 AM)
FL and PL is referring to the light TUBE shape. FL means filament tube. The ones that you see in coffee shop and everywhere else. You will see that your Mozoo light tube is DUAL tube... that's PL already.

You have to get the Mozoo light set with WHITE/WHITE PL tube. It should cost $35 at C328. Don't get the cheap one at $28. That's only PINK/WHITE light which is not bright enough. Another I think at $32 house the BLUE/WHITE tube, which is also not bright enough.

Also note that for Mozoo/Enqing brand light set, ONLY the 2-ft light set comes with 55 watts ebalast. 3 ft and 4 ft are 18Watts and 36Wx2 resp.

If you have the correct light set, then you have to run the light for 24-7 to see the green kick in by 7-9 days.

Ok, confirm I have PL light liao, but whether BLUE/WHITE, PINK/WHITE or WHITE/WHITE -> dunno unsure.gif

Any way to check ?

As for my green water, will start again later.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(desireless @ Tue 29 Jun 2004 07:41 AM)
Oh.. so it is FISHLESS nor....

Have you been re-dosing enough pellets to make sure there is enough ammonia for the green to kick start?

Did you see any fish in those photos? Told you not to PCC too much or you'll go blind... biggrin.gif

Yeah, top-up fresh pellets is very important. Heck, since there's no fish inside, find ways to rocket up the ammonia level such as seriously overdosing pellets.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(jowy_ham @ Tue 29 Jun 2004 03:27 PM)
Ok, confirm I have PL light liao, but whether BLUE/WHITE, PINK/WHITE or WHITE/WHITE -> dunno  unsure.gif

Any way to check ?

As for my green water, will start again later.

Slide a piece of white photocopy paper under the lamp. If one of the tube is coloured, you'll see the obvious difference between the tubes.
desireless
Very obvious one. PL has got dual tube. You turn the light on and see that both tubes are white.
desireless
QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed, 16 Jun 2004 3:42 pm)
does the water clear up partly if u turn off the aeration for an hour?
*

QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed, 16 Jun 2004 6:43 pm)
I think what ET is trying to find out is whether your alage were dead. 

There's one difference in fishless green water cultivation that we must not overlook.  In tradtional cultivation, fresh supplies of ammonia is provided by the fishes on a daily basis.  When there's no fish involved, the ammonia provided by rotting pellets will be depleted by the developing algae.  When there's no food for the algae, they die.

So it's important to replenish the ammonia producing pellets in fishless green water cultivation or risk seeing dead algae that settle down when there's no aeration in stagnant water.  Eons ago I capped a small bottle of green water and kept it in a dark closet for 2 weeks.  Without food/sunlight/DO, needless to say the algae are dead when I took the bottle out of the closet.  What I found was settlements of green algae on the bottle's floor and the water is now clear.  Shaking the bottle a few times "blended" the dead algae and the clear water returned to *almost* the same green water tint it used to be.  So when your algae is dead yet with current circulating them, it will be hard to tell.

wink.gif
*

I did a green water kick-start with the Fishless method a second time. Done a test to my green water today, which is after the 8th or 9th cycle after the virgin brew. This is how the sampled green water (should) look like after letting it settle for one hour plus:
Click to view attachment

Your green water would be "dead" if your water clears up (with algae sediments at the bottom) after letting it settle for some time. The tricky part of attaining "undead" green water algae for this (fishless) kick-start method is to add excessive pellets at the beginning. And I let the light on for 24/7.

Thanks to ET and HB for pointing this out. good_very.gif

Note: An observation I made was that, for the 2nd time, I achieved green water faster - in merely 4 days. It could be due to me adding much more pellets and lesser water this time. Another difference I did was, I have covered the exposed area of the tank with masking tape to prevent houseflies or beatles from committing suicide in my brew (as they were very attracted to the strong light). The stale air MIGHT have some influence, which I can't explained biggrin.gif
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