Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Crystal Goldfish
RafflesGold Forums > Discussion Area > Fancy Goldfish
kingyoo
I've been reading some interesting things from a book on goldfish written in the UK in the 1940's.

It mentions something about some breeds where the scales are so thin that the fish looks "scaleless". Of course they are not actualy scaleless, but you can see some of the organs through the skin especially the gills. The cheeks of the goldfish are pink. They called this a crystal goldfish which was very rare and highly desirable.

Hmm.... I have a calico that I can see through it's scales and see it's gills and some of it's belly. I wonder if it is "highly desirable"? I never knew that a fish with "see through" scales would be attractive in that way. What do you think?

I wonder if back then this was something very extraordinary.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Tue 02 Dec 2003 10:19 AM)
Hmm.... I have a calico that I can see through it's scales and see it's gills and some of it's belly.  I wonder if it is "highly desirable"? I never knew that a fish with "see through" scales would be  attractive in that way.  What do you think?

Wow, that's cool. I've not seen a calico with a iMac kind of body. biggrin.gif I've seen gill plates but not inside the tummy of a calico.

Would it be difficult to snap a pic to show us? I'm curious to know how it looks like.

Does the colour of the tummy changes depending on what kind of food the fish has just eaten?
The Matrix
it's a form of calico, nacreous body. Pinkish throughout. Not easy to find anymore. But the chinese working on the Sakura pattern.
kingyoo
Hmm... I could try to take a picture, but she is in a pond and hard to catch. She is still only about 3 inches long. She is a Bristol Blue Shubunkin. Maybe when I finish my outside pond in the spring I will take a picture of her when I move the fish to outdoors. (green water time) wink.gif

Can you wait a couple of months... that way she will be bigger and easier to see her stomach. (I think it's her stomach)

So do you think the name "Crystal Goldfish" kind of fell out of the goldfish vocabulary over the past years? I have never heard of it before.
The Matrix
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Tue 02 Dec 2003 10:46 AM)
Hmm... I could try to take a picture, but she is in a pond and hard to catch.  She is still only about 3 inches long.  She is a Bristol Blue Shubunkin.  Maybe when I finish my outside pond in the spring I will take a picture of her when I move the fish to outdoors. (green water time) wink.gif

Can you wait a couple of months... that way she will be bigger and easier to see her stomach.  (I think it's her stomach)

So do you think the name "Crystal Goldfish" kind of fell out of the goldfish vocabulary over the past years?  I have never heard of it before.

i will wait to see photo !!! some more it's a bistrol shunbunkin. Some specimens dropped out mainly due to demand. just like pom pom, celestial ... these are totally ignored by many keepers.

winter time coming, you still keeping yr fish in pond ?
kingyoo
Up here in Seattle, our winter is mild and hardly ever goes below freezing. I let my outside common goldfish hybernate in the pond. If I lived in really cold area, I would not do that.

My bristols are in an indoor pond. Can you see them in this picture. Just kidding.IPB Image
CyberET
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Tue 02 Dec 2003 10:59 AM)
Up here in Seattle, our winter is mild and hardly ever goes below freezing.  I let my outside common goldfish hybernate in the pond. If I lived in really cold area, I would not do that.

My bristols are in an indoor pond.  Can you see them in this picture. Just kidding.

hehe.. cool.. is that a room or the main living room? good.gif
kingyoo
He he he, it is supposed to be the main living room. But I have too many fish, so I removed all the furniture except one chair and made it my fish room. I also grow the live daphnia in that room too.
CyberET
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Tue 02 Dec 2003 12:05 PM)
He he he, it is supposed to be the main living room.  But I have too many fish, so I removed all the furniture except one chair and made it my fish room.  I also grow the live daphnia in that room too.

cool, personal supply of daphnia, i had to drive to pick up daphnia everyday when my fishes spawned
square_guy
wah lau ehhh... (my goodness!) biggrin.gif

u really fanatical abt goldfish beg2.gif

i see that u have some water hyacinth in your pond. do they required lotsa light? tat area looks bright. MH?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Tue 02 Dec 2003 12:05 PM)
He he he, it is supposed to be the main living room.  But I have too many fish, so I removed all the furniture except one chair and made it my fish room.  I also grow the live daphnia in that room too.

You go girl!

When I read your personal profile in ezboad, I couldn't quite comprehen why you said your hubby is very understanding and wonderful.

Now with the pic of your living room (for fish!), I know how marvelously wonderful he is!

Hey, you have a very exotic oriental place... and not one but two magnifying glasses as well. biggrin.gif

We'll all wait for spring to see your crystal goldfish!
kingyoo
Square guy- yes, hyacinths need lots of light and warmth. I no longer have those as it is winter. I had to remove them because they were rotting and making my water dirty. I will buy more next spring. They are cheap plants and grow very fast. There is lots of light becase of the large window next to the pond.


Happybuddah- Hard to see, under the fry tank stand there is another magnifying glass. LOL It is one that fits on my head like a visor so I am hands free for inspecting my fry. Good tool for culling.

Yes, our home is very Asian as both my husband and I have lot's of Asian cultural heritage.

Can you see my lucky 3 legged frog and lucky jade plant? That magazine on the stool is a "How to build a Pond" magazine. biggrin.gif
The Matrix
nice room !!

is this what you referring to ?Nacreous moor
kingyoo
QUOTE
nice room !!



Thanks!!!



Nice fish. Why do you call it a moor?

Anyway, I am not sure if that is what the book is describing. The book is very old and doesn't have photos.

But my bristol does look like that but of course with calico color.


So now do we not feel that a fish with this type of coloration is exciting? Is it ordinary? Or is it a rarity?
The Matrix
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Wed 03 Dec 2003 03:22 AM)


Thanks!!! 



Nice fish.  Why do you call it a moor?

Anyway, I am not sure if that is what the book is describing.  The book is very old and doesn't have photos.

But my bristol does look like that but of course with calico color.


So now do we not feel that a fish with this type of coloration is exciting?  Is it ordinary?  Or is it a rarity?

it is a moor. erh ... how to explain har ... the bulging eyes.

yup, indeed quite unique. i used to have one long time ago with some black patches but ....... cry.gif

which uk book is that ? got any isbn number ? i can dig the national library for some reference.
kingyoo
The ISBN is 0571116116. The most recent edition is reprint in 1981.
It is currently out of print.

Ah Moors.... Hmmm well, there is a common mistake to call all telescope eyed goldfish moor. A Moor is a distinct breed which is ALWAYS black. Moor means black. Even in the west, people say "black moor" which is redundant.

If a fish has body shape and eye shape like a moor but is not black then it's not a moor. It is a telescope or dragon eye or demekin.

A true Moor will have a distinct elongated body shape with deep forked lobes on the caudel. Also a true moor do not have the extreme large eyes like chinese dragon eye or demekin. The eyes are a little more pointy.

If the body shape is short and rounded then it is not a moor, but a "black something something..."
LASERGUY
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Tue 02 Dec 2003 10:59 AM)
Up here in Seattle, our winter is mild and hardly ever goes below freezing.  I let my outside common goldfish hybernate in the pond. If I lived in really cold area, I would not do that.

My bristols are in an indoor pond.  Can you see them in this picture. Just kidding.IPB Image

Waaaaaah ! shiok.gif
Super super cool living room......droooool........ beg2.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Wed 03 Dec 2003 12:06 PM)
The ISBN is 0571116116.  The most recent edition is reprint in 1981.
It is currently out of print. 

Ah Moors.... Hmmm well, there is a common mistake to call all telescope eyed goldfish moor. A Moor is a distinct breed which is ALWAYS black.  Moor means black.  Even in the west, people say "black moor" which is redundant.

If a fish has body shape and eye shape like a moor but is not black then it's not a moor.  It is a telescope or dragon eye or demekin.

A true Moor will  have a distinct elongated body shape with deep forked lobes on the caudel.  Also a true moor do not have the extreme large eyes like chinese dragon eye or demekin. The eyes are a little more pointy.

If the body shape is short and rounded then it is not a moor, but a "black something something..."

actual fact, a moor = dragon eyes = demekin = telescopic eyes ... anyway, it's true that when talking about moor, it's always black, and only black.

there is something not correct about your description. You are not completely wrong anyway. A moor used to be elongated body, which is the traditional northern chinese type, which also has the 4 lopes caudal tail. However as modern days of breeding, we have already the Thai moor which is large telescopic eyes, broad tail and still a little of long body. The distinctive Malaysia moor is one of those that is real exotic with smaller eyes, very round body and very broad tail. Both Thai and Malaysia are very black, much better than the usual chinese moor.

searching the isbn and only got 2 old copies selling at Barnes & Noble .... pretty old book !
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(demekin @ Wed 03 Dec 2003 13:33 PM)
actual fact, a moor = dragon eyes = demekin = telescopic eyes ... anyway, it's true that when talking about moor, it's always black, and only black.

unsure.gif

So a moor is always black. But you can also call it a black demekin, black telescopic eyes, or black dragon eyes. But once a demekin, telescopic or dragon eyes is not all black, you cannot refer to it as a moor.

Am I right?
The Matrix
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 03 Dec 2003 21:40 PM)
unsure.gif

So a moor is always black.  But you can also call it a black demekin, black telescopic eyes, or black dragon eyes.  But once a demekin, telescopic or dragon eyes is not all black, you cannot refer to it as a moor.

Am I right?

in a way, quite correct. Moor or dark, black fish have very very little to no other coloration. practically won't fade like some of our black fish which turns red or white/blue. that's why at aquarama, the moor category practically black fish lor. but dunno who put in a red pair.

but hor, normally lah, moor should be a side view fish, so those top view black demekin also not qualify lor.

dragon eyes is what direct chinese translated.
the proper english named as telescopic eyes.
the jap labelled as demekin.

did u buy the poster from tunghoi booth ? they also label all their dragon eyes as moor.
kingyoo
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

This is what I believe:

A moor is a moor, a distinct breed. The color will always be black and always have a deeply forked tail. Maybe in Asia the body shape change with breeding, however a TRUE moor has a nice longer body which makes it distinct from other black varieties.

A black dragon eye or telescope could have may different type tail. Butterfly, broadtail, veiltail, etc. Or body type

A demekin, is Japanese cross of ryukin and dragon eye, can be many color variety, but with ryukin tail. So it is possible to have a black demekin.


This is probably a regional thing and breeding thing. A lot of people in the west get confused on this issue too.
The Matrix
QUOTE(kingyoo @ Thu 04 Dec 2003 00:28 AM)
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

This is what I believe:

A moor is a moor, a distinct breed.  The color will always be black and always have  a deeply forked tail.  Maybe in Asia the body shape change with breeding, however a TRUE moor has a nice longer body which makes it distinct from other black varieties.

A black dragon eye or telescope could have may different type tail.  Butterfly, broadtail, veiltail, etc.  Or body type

A demekin, is Japanese cross of ryukin and dragon eye, can be many color variety, but with ryukin tail.  So it is possible to have a black demekin.


This is probably a regional thing and breeding thing.  A lot of people in the west get confused on this issue too.

Understand what you mean. i know it's going to be tough as well. The older days of moor is what you have described. And yes, you are correct to say that's the true black moor. Things have changed a lot. The appreciation of moor has shifted to a rounder body, higher back, nice clean broader tail and of course, still jet black. demand for such traditional moor no longer high as it's not appealing compare to the newer fancier ones. just like ranchu, who want a traditional true Osaka ranchu (if it still exist in this world).

Here is a pic ... top a chinese fancy black moor, lower left traditional black moor, lower right malaysia broad tail black moor. all these are qualified in moor category in any competition.

IPB Image
kingyoo
Controversy!!! I love it! There are always debate on goldfish stuff.

Here is a pic of my western bred moor.

IPB Image




This is a pic of my chinese bred black broadtail dragon eye. You can see his breeding stars.

IPB Image



I know the first picture is a little blurry, but isn't it interesting how here in the west, people will call both these fish a moor even though there are obvious differences.

FYI, the moor was only about 3 inches when this photo was taken. The dragon eye is about 7 inches.
The Matrix
well, that's the change as this hobby advance itself and simplifying various criteria .... that's the fun part of this hobby rite ? biggrin.gif

anyway, since we started from Crystal Goldfish, I dig and dig and found something for you ...

Sorry, i got to translated as the paragraph is written in chinese.

Crystal Goldfish AKA Transparent fish, should carry the body shape of a dragon-eyes. Back, stomach should be broad and caudal, fins should be well spread. Lack of color pigmentation on the skin layer beneath the scale giving it the transparent look. Overall body color should be fresh translucent pinkish, eyes should be black or bluish.
kingyoo
Good idea! Back to Crystal Goldfish.

Thank you for this information. So it seems that the Crystal Goldfish is a distinct breed. And not a color variety. So if a fish had Crystal color but was a single tail fish or ranchu, then it is not a Crystal goldfish. It would be a crystal colored ranchu etc.?

Is that correct?

Very interesting. We should bring back the popularity of Crystal goldfish! good_very.gif
The Matrix
so sorry ... i was typing half way and got called away for some meeting.


CONT'd ..... This crystal goldfish exist in almost any calico variation. So it's a form of calico but does not carry any pigmentation. It's can be outcrossed with other varieties to form the basic calico pattern.

erh ... chim dunno what i translating also. hahahahaha.
kingyoo
QUOTE
Wow, that's cool. I've not seen a calico with a iMac kind of body.  I've seen gill plates but not inside the tummy of a calico.

Would it be difficult to snap a pic to show us? I'm curious to know how it looks like.


Well, I moved some fish around so I took the opportunity to take some pics of the bristols. I guess they have grown so much in the pond that it is obvious to me now that I really can't see their tummy. When they were little, the skin color must of looked like their guts. I can only see their gills now.

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image


Any way, I still like them. They are cute goldfish that look good in a pond. I am hoping to get more bristols from a different strain with dark markings to compliment these with the light markings.
HappyBuddha
Hey sis, thanks for the pics. Now I know how they look like. I *think* I have seen some other fishes exhibiting this unusual pattern. I thought I could perhaps see the inside of their tummy too such that, for instance, when they were fed peas, the tummy appear green in colour. biggrin.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2017 Invision Power Services, Inc.