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yamato38gunkei
What do you all think of this Nisai Ranchu ? Thai ? Japanese ?

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Frankie
As a newbie and having seen many photos of ranchu on the internet regarding good Japanese ranchu and also Thai, I believe that it looks like a champion Japanese ranchu. This ranchu will grow up to be a real beauty. If it is a Thai ranchu, then I think the Japanese breeder will be worried.

As for my personal preference, I think that the fish is almost perfect except that I prefer the split at the center of the tail to be deeper and also my personal preference for complete red ranchu.

What do the others think?
Frankie
I would guess that it is a japanese
Frankie
hello Mr Geert.

I am very new to ranchu judgement and still training my "ranchu eye" very very hard. But I would like to try. Pardon me if I am wrong. laugh.gif

To me, I think this ranchu is more like a Japanese breed. Because

1) the scale is pretty fine and uniform
2) the color is deep but don't shine
3) the tail: 1) sharp tail fin (caudal fins all way up to upper caudal lobes),2) soft lower caudal lobes.
I give these 3 pts the lookout for viewing the difference
Please give feedback. tongue.gif

Thanks! smile.gif
Frankie
nice fish.....
neat scales, tail open up nicely....
adequate headgrowth......
good slim body....
good contrast of colours...

a double thumbs up.... good_very.gif
Frankie
IMHO...

Nice head
Nice body
Nice caudal peduncle but would prefer a more curved peduncle to give it a more compact/taut look
Nice tail
Nice body markings
Cannot tell if Jap or Thai
Looks like Tosai...
Frankie
I love this fish. I don't care if it's Thai or Japanese primarily because I can't tell them apart (except when they are of commercial grade.) I do, however, find this Nisai a little small for its age. I wish it has more bulk. The tails, although a little small, is nice. It's a 4-pivoted and have the right suspended structure. This is a powerful fish.

So the above is my view. Now your turn to tell me if it's a Thai or a Japanese Ranchu. I really wish I know how to tell the difference. Thanx.
Frankie
I have guessed that it is a jap. however i think it is still very far off from a champion nisai.

the build simply isn't there for a nisai.
Frankie
pardon me if i am wrong, but from the look of the fish, its not a Jap and its not a Thai....

looks uncanningly like Geert's own bloodline....
its a Belgium ranchu.....

Geert, correct me if i am wrong....
Frankie
I my opnion, I really think it is a Thai.

I too feel it's head is a little under develop for a full Nisai and it's tail does not have sign than it is full Nisai, but then again, this fish could be a young Nisai.

A nice fish indeed. cheers
Frankie
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Sat 15 May 2004 07:48 AM)
What do you all think of this Nisai Ranchu ?  Thai ?  Japanese ?

That's a tough question.
Belong to one of your club member's fish ? I don't think is your lineage.

Okayama's line, probably kato or kashino lineage.

Head is ok, not broad enough.
Neatness on scale, but don't looks like a japan fish.
Coloration seems to a little weird. Doesn't seems to suggest good keeping.
Tail looks stiff. Really need to see how it swim then can tell.
Slightly thin overall, still a neat fish for keeping purpose.
Yet to reach the full potential of a nisai. Lacking in body mass.

Not a japan raised fish.
yamato38gunkei
Maybe this will help a little. At the time of the photo, it was a very young Nisai (11 months). But this Ranchu is born in 2003 and the photo is taken in 2004, so it is a Nisai.
Frankie
looks thai, yet certain features it has resembles jap..

scaling doesn't look jap

under developed for a jap nisai if it is..

smile.gif
Frankie
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Sun 16 May 2004 07:51 PM)
Maybe this will help a little.  At the time of the photo, it was a very young Nisai (11 months).  But this Ranchu is born in 2003 and the photo is taken in 2004, so it is a Nisai.

That should explain why most feature not develop yet. Pretty late spawn ...

Considering an 11 mths old fish, it's quite good already. 4 more months to see full potential.

And I still stick my head out .... not a Japan raised fish. A sure japan bloodline. Dun looks thai at all.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Sat 15 May 2004 07:48 AM)
What do you all think of this Nisai Ranchu ?  Thai ?  Japanese ?

Geert, I think many of us are quite eager to find out the answer...please? unsure.gif
olddog
I am sure its a Japanese bloodline. The tail bone is very strong I suspect Kashino blood in it.

Regards Forrest.
Frankie
I think Geert is asking this "What do you all think of this Nisai Ranchu ? Thai ? Japanese ?" He is asking for us to guess where does this fish comes from. He is not asking for the bloodline but where is this ranchu being breed.

The answer I believe should be Thai, Japan, Indonesia or Singapore and not Kashino, Kato, Ishikawa or Naitoh.
Frankie
QUOTE(Frankie @ Wed 19 May 2004 08:42 AM)
I think Geert is asking this "What do you all think of this Nisai Ranchu ? Thai ? Japanese ?" He is asking for us to guess where does this fish comes from. He is not asking for the bloodline but where is this ranchu being breed.

The answer I believe should be Thai, Japan, Indonesia or Singapore and not Kashino, Kato, Ishikawa or Naitoh.

doh... if tat's the case, we can only post single word replies. "Thai" or "Jap". where's the fun and discussion?
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(Frankie @ Wed 19 May 2004 04:22 AM)
doh... if tat's the case, we can only post single word replies. "Thai" or "Jap". where's the fun and discussion?

No problem. All comments are welcome !
I hope to send you my answer soon. I am a little busy. Sorry.
Frankie
would definately say its "BELGIUM"
yamato38gunkei
OK, finally my answer !
It is a Ranchu I bred in 2003 from Kashino Ranchu parents. It is a male.

The photo was taken a while ago. It did change a lot since the photo. I hope to show you this Ranchu again around October-November. By then it should be a full Nisai.

This Ranchu became East Ozeki twice as a Tosai. I think (hope) that it will have its full potential by the age of 4. I think it is a very good Ranchu. But then again, this is my opinion ...

More comments are very welcome !

Regards,


Geert Coppens
DIYGOLD
dear Geert, thanks for your answer. I think everyone here more or less able to tell the difference btw a Thai and Jap ranchu. However, I jz wonder what's yours opinion and points to look out for about both difference? Hope you can share with us.

Thanks again,
Namaste
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(namaste @ Mon 24 May 2004 09:54 AM)
dear Geert, thanks for your answer. I think everyone here more or less able to tell the difference btw a Thai and Jap ranchu. However, I jz wonder what's yours opinion and points to look out for about both difference?

I think a Thai Ranchu and a Japanese Ranchu should look the same. People in Thailand, Japan and all other countries should breed towards the same Standard of Perfection.

The best Japanese Ranchu are the best in the world !!!!! And there are MANY high quality Ranchu in Japan. But there are also many inferior Ranchu in Japan. Most of the time, we only see the best. We are only interested to see the best.

One of the big advantages of the Japanese scene is that there are many HOBBYIST breeders involved who are all very keen to breed high quality Ranchu and to establish high quality bloodlines.

To be able to breed high quality Ranchu it is necessary to understand the value of Ranchu and Ranchu bloodlines. And I think the Japanese know this better than anyone else.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
Frankie
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Tue 25 May 2004 07:23 PM)
I think a Thai Ranchu and a Japanese Ranchu should look the same.  People in Thailand, Japan and all other countries should breed towards the same Standard of Perfection.

The best Japanese Ranchu are the best in the world !!!!!  And there are MANY high quality Ranchu in Japan.  But there are also many inferior Ranchu in Japan.  Most of the time, we only see the best.  We are only interested to see the best. 


Does that mean that a Thai breed (Japanese) ranchu can be mistaken for a Japan breed ranchu and vice versa?

If so why so much discussion etc. on Thai or Japanese ranchu?

Ity also seems that in Singapore, we are not getting the best both from Thailand and Japan, How about Belgium? Any agent in Singapore?
Frankie
QUOTE(Frankie @ Tue 25 May 2004 08:25 PM)
Does that mean that a Thai breed (Japanese) ranchu can be mistaken for a Japan breed ranchu and vice versa?

If so why so much discussion etc. on Thai or Japanese ranchu?

Ity also seems that in Singapore, we are not getting the best both from Thailand and Japan, How about Belgium? Any agent in Singapore?

The art of keeping Ranchu is not to approach it as a static object but a holistic experience of the hobby.

When "old birds" here and elsewhere talk about Ranchus, they are NOT talking about Ranchus you can buy from LFS. They are talking about Ranchu bred by dedicated HOBBYIST breeders where the Ranchu is an object worshipped and classified as a National Treasure of Japan! These are dedicated people who strive to maintain high quality bloodlines and establish new standards. Small clubs in Japan (and elsewhere adhering strictly to the Japanese guidelines) are setup individually to maintain, perfect, establish a bloodline. The clubs with their master breeder/mentor will guide the members/students with their own way to keep a Ranchu, "secretive" ways perhaps, but that's just part of the fun where "arts" cannot be explained or quantified by science.

When a master breeder, a person with years of experience earned through hard work, perhaps tormented by traditional teaching methods pass down by generations of mentors before him, could get less than a handful of competition grade Ranchu ONCE a year, do you think a COMMERCIALLY bred in Japan (or outside Japan) has a chance to be taken seriously?

On the other hand, you can jolly well "play" with commercial grade Ranchus, and be delighted your purchase fits your pre-conception of how a Ranchu should LOOK like. A true art connoisseur will make an effort to appreciate an authentic piece of art, while a casual fan will be satisfied with print copies. In this sense, you are better off buying lower cost copies from Thailand then prints made in Japan. Both are equally “bad” but at least the Thai version will set you back less.

To blindly worship “Japanese” ranchus is a foolish thing to do, but to appreciate it fully is a long and daunting road to crawl on first.
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(Frankie @ Tue 25 May 2004 01:25 PM)
Does that mean that a Thai breed (Japanese) ranchu can be mistaken for a Japan breed ranchu and vice versa?

Of course !
But there are still more high quality Ranchu in Japan than anywhere else in the world.
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(Frankie @ Tue 25 May 2004 01:25 PM)
If so why so much discussion etc. on Thai or Japanese ranchu?

I do not know ! But again, the very best are still in Japan. But a Ranchu should look the same no matter where it is bred.
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(Frankie @ Tue 25 May 2004 01:25 PM)


Ity also seems that in Singapore, we are not getting the best both from Thailand and Japan, How about Belgium? Any agent in Singapore?

It is impossible to buy the best Ranchu, because the breeders keep the best for themselves, for their students and for the members belonging to their group e.g. Kashino Ranchu Group.
We also should know that from every high quality spawning only a very small number are good enough to be developed as high quality Show Ranchu.
I think that the best way to obtain the very best Ranchu is to try to buy Seed Ranchu from famous breeders or famous bloodlines and to try to breed the High Quality Ranchu yourself.
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(Frankie @ Tue 25 May 2004 01:25 PM)
Any agent in Singapore?

It may be a good idea to contact Alvin Lim !
Frankie
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Thu 27 May 2004 08:24 AM)
It is impossible to buy the best Ranchu, because the breeders keep the best for themselves, for their students and for the members belonging to their group e.g. Kashino Ranchu Group.
We also should know that from every high quality spawning only a very small number are good enough to be developed as high quality Show Ranchu.
I think that the best way to obtain the very best Ranchu is to try to buy Seed Ranchu from famous breeders or famous bloodlines and to try to breed the High Quality Ranchu yourself.

I'm so confused. If breeders such as Kashino keep the best for themselves, then is there any value to those ranchus that they put up for sale to the general public?

I assume such breeders have special skills in culling. And with this skill, the young fish that they put up for sale to the general public are the lousier ones? Afterall, even an amatuer breeder knows how to cull fries with obvious defects, keeping less obviously defective one longer and cull them again when the defects are more obvious. So the worse kind to buy are really the black babies, isn't it? Afterall, I can't think of any reason why Kashino would put up babies with potential for sale to the general public! Heck, if you don't belong to his group, even the tosai/nisai he sells you are probably not that great. So I imagine a few diehards here are realizing they have been taken for a ride with those "Japanese" ranchus they paid good money for. You've been buying craps! rofl2.gif
Frankie
QUOTE(Frankie @ Thu 27 May 2004 12:55 PM)
I'm so confused.  If breeders such as Kashino keep the best for themselves, then is there any value to those ranchus that they put up for sale to the general public? 

I assume such breeders have special skills in culling. And with this skill, the young fish that they put up for sale to the general public are the lousier ones?  Afterall, even an amatuer breeder knows how to cull fries with obvious defects, keeping less obviously defective one longer and cull them again when the defects are more obvious.  So the worse kind to buy are really the black babies, isn't it?  Afterall, I can't think of any reason why Kashino would put up babies with potential for sale to the general public!  Heck, if you don't belong to his group, even the tosai/nisai he sells you are probably not that great.  So I imagine a few diehards here are realizing they have been taken for a ride with those "Japanese" ranchus they paid good money for. You've been buying craps!  rofl2.gif

Well these Jap breeders are actually culling out fishes without potential not defects. They have a reputation to protect, they will not sell you fishes with physical defects such as no anal fins.. hehehehe....... Defective fishes are discarded.

If you are able to get your hands on a mature tosai or nisai, chances are you will be getting good fish as they would have recognised it is a potential fish in the beginning to keep till this age. Prices will be steep as well.

So for those people that buys black babies hoping that the breeders might have a day off in his culling, I would say it is unlikely cos the japs never miss !

You just have to accept the fact that you will be not buying their best fishes. What we are playing here are 2nd or 3rd tier fishes in jap high standards. At this level, the fishes that are available is consider good already. Like Geert point out, unless you breed your own. Now the question is, is breeding as simple as putting 2 males and 1 female of the same line ? I think, the thais will know better since they are still buying form the Japs.
Frankie
QUOTE(Frankie @ Thu 27 May 2004 12:55 PM)
Afterall, I can't think of any reason why Kashino would put up babies with potential for sale to the general public!  Heck, if you don't belong to his group, even the tosai/nisai he sells you are probably not that great.  So I imagine a few diehards here are realizing they have been taken for a ride with those "Japanese" ranchus they paid good money for. You've been buying craps!  rofl2.gif

I think that just because a girl do not make it to the finals of the Miss Universe contest does not mean that she is not beautiful. With people like Kashino-san breeding probably hundreds of thousands of ranchu frys annually, it is impossible for him to keep all. I believe that what goes into the market are still probably the top 3% to 5% of the season's breed.

The other reason that I can think of is that it is the cheapest way to obtain a good bloodline if you intends to breed it yourself. Sometimes, not so-good looking parents can produce excellent offsprings. It is a numbers game. As Dr Matsui said the secret of good Japanese ranchu is in its ruthless or highly selective culling.

The other thing is that raising the fry is the harder part of this equation. Even champion frys raised by the wrong method will spoil the fish. I think in this respect, the Thais still have much to learn from the Japs.
Frankie
QUOTE(Frankie @ Thu 27 May 2004 05:55 AM)
I'm so confused.  If breeders such as Kashino keep the best for themselves, then is there any value to those ranchus that they put up for sale to the general public? 

These Ranchu are VERY VALUABLE to breed from !
Frankie
QUOTE(Frankie @ Thu 27 May 2004 12:55 PM)
I'm so confused.  If breeders such as Kashino keep the best for themselves, then is there any value to those ranchus that they put up for sale to the general public? 

I think if you are Mr Kashino. you will do the same. Will you sell your best ranchu and keep the bad ones. This is the only way to ensure that the bloodline remains superior. At least, we will continue to get good fish from him for many many years to come rather than to get one lot of very good fish and then stop there.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of ranchu hobbyist waiting to get hold of Kashino's best ranchu. It is more difficult to get Kashino's top ranchu than for one to strike lottery first prize, unless of course you offer your first prize lottery money to Kashino for his top ranchu.

I was told that there are many ranchu clubs all over Japan. Some of these clubs are small and they keep a specific bloodline and exchange with each other their ranchu for breeding. Even the top breeders exchange ranchu with each other or buys from other breeders just to ensure that they do not get too much inbreeding in their bloodline. Surely when Kashino gets one of these ranchus from other breeders, he will certainly not get the very best as well.

As Geert puts it, if you want the best, then breed it yourself. No one is so stupid as to sell his best and keep the second best unless someone offers a very good price for his best.
DIYGOLD
QUOTE(Frankie @ Thu 27 May 2004 12:55 PM)
Heck, if you don't belong to his group, even the tosai/nisai he sells you are probably not that great.  So I imagine a few diehards here are realizing they have been taken for a ride with those "Japanese" ranchus they paid good money for. You've been buying craps!  rofl2.gif

I think to understand what worth to buy takes a lot of experience and understanding how to select good and potential fish. Therefore it is always a learning curve for every beginners to take this ride. I believe the TRUE experts too.

Namaste
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