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HappyBuddha
Suppose you *finally* figured out you are overcrowding your tank but you can't afford to upgrade or get a bigger tank.

How would you get rid of the excess goldfish? I presume you'll only keep the better ones (but surely your better ones are already stunt since you have been overcrowding your tank!)

How har? Trade them in? Which LFS accepts trade-ins?
olddog
I have always found it best just to share surplus fish with friends or club members.

When I owned my own live fish store I always hated trade ins. The three reasons being;
Increased risk of disease compared to quality quarantined wholesale stock. Odd sizes and stunted/reject fish. And lastly customers over expectations as to worth of fish.

In cases where the main tank stock is adversely affected by overcrowding then culling is the only option if you can’t trade them away. It’s unpleasant on larger specimens but still humanely possible. I can give details on humane methods of disposal if you like. Don’t just flush down toilet like some cruel people.

Forrest (olddog)
max
For me, there are a few options:

a) sell it to a cheap skate but a very kind friend of mine for a gave away price of maybe 10c. (superstitious reason)
*problem is transporting it from one end of the island to the other.

b) secretly put it into one of my neighbour's (ah pek) 4 ft guppy tank outside his flat.
*can be charge in court.

c) for really bad fish or diseased fish put it in a plastic bag (with water) & put the bag in the freezer, because of the cold the fish will go into a deep sleep or hibernation as in cold countries but this time never wake up again.
*heart pain.
mountain
i freeze them, then forget abt them .. then get scolded. God forgive me. beg2.gif
olddog
I am not convinced the freezer method is humane or without pain.

I personally recommend two methods, both painless.

First method is to add fish to a bag of water then add drops of oil of cloves until the fish is unconscious then add many times the dose to put the fish to permanent painless sleep (recognised by no gill movement for many hours). This method is definitely painless as fish can be surgically operated on using the lower dosage levels.

Second method is quick but not for the squeamish. First place fish in plastic carrier bag. Remove air with hand. Knot bag close to fish. Place another bag over the first bag. Firmly swing bag against fixed object (like brick wall) do not attempt this method without resolution to use adequate force as pain will result with soft approach.

If I were a fish and I had a choice of freezing over several hour’s or instant train like smash or chemical sleep I know what way I would want to go.

I think the freezer method is easy on conscience as one does not have to act or watch ones action directly. I do not like the priest method of battering fish to head as sport fishermen do. Hobbyists generally lack resolve to use enough for to complete the job humanely. Also even the biggest fancy gold fish are significantly smaller than game fish thereby reducing the chance of an accurate clean kill.

I respect all life. But all fancy goldfish keepers must understand 99 percent of our production must be culled to get just one specimen. Even our most favourite pets will one day require humane disposal in old age and poor health. We must take the resolve to do this decently with little or no pain.

Forrest (olddog).
jhansolo
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 19 May 2004 03:42 PM)

How har?  Trade them in?  Which LFS accepts trade-ins?

I don't like the idea of trade in to LFS. Many a times we took pity on a fish and buy them right ... besides the irresistible itch.

Give away to strangers, that's another issue that your pet is the next meal for the bigger fish.

Give away to friends, don't we give the best (if they are true friends) rather than a stunted / sick fish.

I go with the idea of mercy killing, get a friend to do it and buy him / her dinner.

Of all the ideas, I like the idea of crash death best, it is fast and hygienic.
desireless
I simply sell back to the LFS cheaply and they in turn sell it to those little kids. If the fish were to die, they did not die in my hands tongue.gif
mountain
QUOTE(olddog @ Wed 19 May 2004 07:30 PM)
First method is to add fish to a bag of water then add drops of oil of cloves until the fish is unconscious then add many times the dose to put the fish to permanent painless sleep (recognised by no gill movement for many hours). This method is definitely painless as fish can be surgically operated on using the lower dosage levels.


Yes, i have often heard from hobbist that Oil of clove method is consider the most humane. I do not mind trying that out. But any locals seen this stuff on sale locally? I am from the mountains and have not seen such in item before.

I would skip the squeamish method, my family is in the poultry business, and back then the government still allow us to slaughter chickens in the "supermart". I have bad skills such that i can slit the chicken's throat or tweek it bad enuff and it would still walk a couple of distance before it .... blush.gif
olddog
Oil of cloves is a mild contact anaesthetic that is used to relieve pain in toothache. It’s very inexpensive and has a very rapid effect even on humans. If you live in the mountains it’s good to have at hand for dental emergencies. I have used it many times on myself to good effect even on broken teeth.

If you visit a good pharmacy in most cities it’s normally easy to get hold of without prescription. It’s also relatively inexpensive.

As I previously mentioned you can even conduct painful ulcer scrapes or fin trims without stress using this stuff. Try a little in your own mouth, it’s a completely numb feeling so I know it will work on fish.


Best regards Forrest
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 20 May 2004 01:35 PM)
If you visit a good pharmacy in most cities it’s normally easy to get hold of without prescription. It’s also relatively inexpensive.

Thank you for directing me to the pharmacy. I dunno... Silly me was thinking salad dressing.... biggrin.gif

Just to clarify on its usage:-

Suppose it takes 10 drops of the oil to knock out a fish. Can I dose 10 drops at one go? You seem to imply the dosage should increase gradually only stopping when the fish is completely knocked out. Thanks.
olddog
Dosage will depend on the potency and purity of the oil purchased. Size of the subject and amount of water in container will also affect amount required.

I would not recommend adding lethal dosage all in one go, it would cause unnecessary stress to the animal. Just observe the gill movements and add slowly for gentle humane effect.

If you are using it as a surgical anaesthetic err on safe dosage side. Too much and like human anaesthetic it becomes irreversible. Count gill beats at start of procedure add drops to half this level then proceed to work on fish or complete its humane destruction in its anesthetised state. You can add many times the does required for the level of stupor to complete the job or finish using the crash method in its anesthetized state.

To revive a fish from anesthetized state after surgical procedure flush fresh water though gill plates until fish regains consciousness. It is not recommend sustaining anaesthesia state for more than about five minutes to avoid permanent damage to the subject.

I would still firstly recommend members to steel themselves to using the crash method. I am soft hearted but still confidently dispose of even once cherished specimens this way with practice.

Hope this info helps; I know it’s a difficult task for us animal lovers to face. cry.gif

Regards,
Forrest (olddog)
olddog
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Thu 20 May 2004 09:54 AM)
I dunno... Silly me was thinking salad dressing...



Wow, one could end up consuming more than just salid with this as a dressing.
shiok.gif

Forrest
white horse T1
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 19 May 2004 03:42 PM)
Suppose you *finally* figured out you are overcrowding your tank but you can't afford to upgrade or get a bigger tank. 

How would you get rid of the excess goldfish?  I presume you'll only keep the better ones (but surely your better ones are already stunt since you have been overcrowding your tank!)

How har?  Trade them in?  Which LFS accepts trade-ins?

hb u talking or hinting to me again? ? tongue.gif blush.gif
Allan
QUOTE(white horse T1 @ Fri 21 May 2004 11:55 AM)
hb u talking or hinting to me again? ? tongue.gif  blush.gif

Hahahaha. That's a good one!

I also think he was hinting to you.
HappyBuddha
I spent the most part of today looking for Oil of Cloves.

Guardian Pharmacy does not carry it. In fact, two pharmacists in two different GP have not heard of such a thing.... mad.gif

Frustrated, I went to a traditional chinese medicine shop. I found out Oil of Cloves is "丁香油" in mandarin and a very common ingredient for many ointments. BTW, it's also an ingredient ("Kretek") in Indonesian cigarettes Gudang Garam giving it that distinctive aroma.

But still I can't get 100% pure Oil of Cloves anywhere. I however bought some dried Cloves for $1 per 100 grams from a traditional grocery stall - it's used by housewife as spice. smile.gif

Then it hits me. Olddog said it works as a anaesthetic to knock out a fish... and overdosing it will make the fish sleep forever.

Therefore "TRANSMORE" will probably work!!!

Transmore is a popular tranquilizer to knock out big fish such as Arowana for transportation or surgery purpose etc. A few drops is enough to knock out an adult arowana so I'm sure it will work on goldfish too. It's cheap; $5 at most.

Any one here has experience using Transmore?

May I stop looking for Oil of Cloves and use Transmore (or equivalent) instead? unsure.gif
dragonhart
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:15 PM)

Then it hits me.  Olddog said it works as a anaesthetic to knock out a fish... and overdosing it will make the fish sleep forever.

Therefore "TRANSMORE" will probably work!!!

Transmore is a popular tranquilizer to knock out big fish such as Arowana for transportation or surgery purpose etc. A few drops is enough to knock out an adult arowana so I'm sure it will work on goldfish too.  It's cheap; $5 at most.

Any one here has experience using Transmore? 

May I stop looking for Oil of Cloves and use Transmore (or equivalent) instead?  unsure.gif

hi HB, don't need to hit yourself lah. appropriate dose of anathestic will anathestize, and overdose will kill. e.g darts to sedate wild animals such as elephants, rhinos, lion used in other zoos (africa) will easily kill a man.
Amos
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:15 PM)
Any one here has experience using Transmore? 

May I stop looking for Oil of Cloves and use Transmore (or equivalent) instead?  unsure.gif

Yes you may. I've used Transmore to put my goldfish to sleep permanently. I usually leave the fish in the pail for an hour to make sure it's really gone before I throw it away.
desireless
Wah... you people really very cruel... tongue.gif Discussion on methods to kill fish...
Must report SPCA liao laugh.gif

Anyway... if I can psycho and convince myself to kill a fish, I might as well flush it away. Why spend $$ on anaesthesia? unsure.gif

So troublesome.... Slow death... My heart pain pain. Might as well quick quick flush it away peace.gif

长痛不如短痛。。。。
jhansolo
QUOTE(desireless @ Wed 26 May 2004 10:17 PM)

So troublesome.... Slow death... My heart pain pain. Might as well quick quick flush it away  peace.gif

长痛不如短痛。。。。

I think by flushing is a slowly death is just that you don't get to see it.

I like the idea of flushing for the purpose of hygene as the means of disposal.
Allan
QUOTE(jhansolo @ Thu 27 May 2004 10:34 AM)
I think by flushing is a slowly death is just that you don't get to see it.

I like the idea of flushing for the purpose of hygene as the means of disposal.

It would be terribly embarassing when the town counsel comes to your house to unclog your toilet and find a large fish in it!
jhansolo
QUOTE(Allan @ Thu 27 May 2004 05:07 PM)
It would be terribly embarassing when the town counsel comes to your house to unclog your toilet and find a large fish in it!

blush.gif Never thought about that
olddog
I would imagine the purpose made fish anaesthetic would defiantly be a good alternative to oil of cloves. For some strange reason it’s readily available in the U.K.
I had imagined this to be so in most other countries.

In the U.K one would require a prescription and a consultation from a vet to obtain even the most common vet drugs like the anaesthetics you mentioned. That’s why we explore herbal remedies or simple chemical treatments like salt more in the UK.
It’s most frustrating; I would love to get hold of antibiotic supplemented food or Japanese yellow powder to treat a lot of things easily. But it’s just not possible in the U.K due to its strict dispensing laws.
When one discusses aquatic problems with the vet in the UK one is more likely to know more than the vet. It’s also an expensive experience being charged for this consultation as well!

On a final note live “flushing” is a cruel method. Fish will remain alive in most sewer systems for a considerable time. If not slowly poisoned to death then eaten alive by rats could easily be one consequence. Another point to consider could be the introduction of imported diseases into your countries water system. It is not inconceivable for infected invasive fish to infect your native fish by direct contact to the “flushings”.


Forrest
Seacucumber
how about releasing it into ponds or reservoirs??
olddog
QUOTE(g-string @ Thu 27 May 2004 10:24 AM)
how about releasing it into ponds or reservoirs??

Its just as bad from enviromental point of view. Invasive impact on native fish population is big problem in some locations. In U.S even marine fish are a problem.

In Uk american crays are eating all English crays
Forrest
desireless
Just like Louhan infesting most reservoirs here...
mrchoco
where to buy this transmore?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mrchoco @ Sun 30 May 2004 01:34 AM)
where to buy this transmore?

Shops that sell Arowana should have it as aro keepers need Transmore to knock out their pet before transporting it or perform surgery. The brand is NIKA, and the small bottle looks like the following product from the same company.

IPB Image
mrchoco
does it work for SBD this nika?:
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(mrchoco @ Sun 30 May 2004 10:12 AM)
does it work for SBD this nika?:

Actually, I'm not entire sure coz that time I really don't understand what SBD is:

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66363
Allan
IPB Image

TRANSMORE

A shipping stablizer for the transportation of freshwater aquarium fishes. Also for use to stablize aquarium fishes for artificial spawning or short duration minor operation.

Active Ingredient: methylquinoline

Transmore has NO anaesthetic effect on warm-blooded animals, eg, human. It ONLY WORKS on cold-blooded animals, eg. fish.

Dosage:
  • Transportation - 1 ml to 13.5 litres (3 Imp Gal) of water
  • Artificial spawning & Minor Operation - Place the fish to another tank off water immediately after the procedure. 1 ml to 4.5 lires (1 Imp Gal) of water. Increase dose gradually after 5 minutes if necessary. Do not overdose

Transmore costs $5 at Lam Hong in AMK. They seem to be one of the rare few that carries new stock.

I didn't know it's recommended for artificial spawning too. Thank goodness it doesn't work on human or kids may buy Transmore to spike drinks at parties. wink.gif
mrchoco
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Sun 30 May 2004 11:38 AM)
Actually, I'm not entire sure coz that time I really don't understand what SBD is:

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66363

SBD = swim bladder disorder
domho7
QUOTE(Allan @ Sun 30 May 2004 04:54 PM)
User Posted Image

TRANSMORE

A shipping stablizer for the transportation of freshwater aquarium fishes. Also for use to stablize aquarium fishes for artificial spawning or short duration minor operation.

Active Ingredient: methylquinoline

Transmore has NO anaesthetic effect on warm-blooded animals, eg, human.  It ONLY WORKS on cold-blooded animals, eg. fish.

Dosage:
  • Transportation - 1 ml to 13.5 litres (3 Imp Gal) of water
  • Artificial spawning & Minor Operation - Place the fish to another tank off water immediately after the procedure.  1 ml to 4.5 lires (1 Imp Gal) of water. Increase dose gradually after 5 minutes if necessary.  Do not overdose

Transmore costs $5 at Lam Hong in AMK.  They seem to be one of the rare few that carries new stock.

I didn't know it's recommended for artificial spawning too.  Thank goodness it doesn't work on human or kids may buy Transmore to spike drinks at parties.  wink.gif

maybe can try some on your coke see get drowsy boh. good_very.gif
Allan
Finally tried Transmore on a Ryukin I want to put to sleep.

It's NO FUN!

I was hoping I can very quickly put the Ryukin to sleep but it refuse to. I followed the dosage instruction and initially the fish actually struggled a little before it calms down, choking occasionally but otherwise there's no gills movement. So I increase the dosage but an hour passed and the Ryukin is still alive. In fact, it seems to be coming out of deep sleep.
desireless
QUOTE(Allan @ Fri 04 Jun 2004 08:49 PM)
Finally tried Transmore on a Ryukin I want to put to sleep. 
 
It's NO FUN!   
 
I was hoping I can very quickly put the Ryukin to sleep but it  refuse to.  I followed the dosage instruction and initially the fish actually struggled a little before it calms down, choking occasionally but otherwise there's no gills movement.  So I increase the dosage but an hour passed and the Ryukin is still alive. In fact, it seems to  be coming out of deep sleep.

Alive? I think you're supposed to make it inactive and then put in freezer to kill it.

Anaesthesia won't kill the fish. Just put it to sleep... then you still have to kill it by putting it in freezer.

Anyway, you sure you bought the bottle from Lam Hong? I went there and the boss say he don't sell Nika brand stuff leh... unsure.gif
mrchoco
maybe allan got the brand
nokia
olddog
Too much anaesthetic should kill anything. Perhaps this Transmore is not as strong as clove oil.
Seacucumber
just found a good way to dispose unwanted fishes....
donate to schools...
i just gave some to my neighbourhood primary school.....biggrin.gif
CyberET
how to give away those that upside down, but simply won't die? unsure.gif
nobnoba
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri 04 Jun 2004 08:30 PM)
Alive? I think you're supposed to make it inactive and then put in freezer to kill it.

Anaesthesia won't kill the fish. Just put it to sleep... then you still have to kill it by putting it in freezer.

Dont you think that the most humane way to kill a fish is to put them in the freezer? i tell you why...
below 15 degree celcius, the fish is in asleep or olddog would say it is in 'shock'. the gill doesnt move, it doesnt breathe (i think) or move but still ALIVE.
below 0 degree celcius, the body starts to freeze and the fish died... in his/her sleep.

Doesnt that the better and fast solution? all the fish know is that its going to sleep... it wont fill the pain at all.
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