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RafflesGold Forums > Discussion Area > Green Water, Filtration and Tank Setup
ranchuking
Hi, this might not go down well with sweared green water only ranchu keepers. But it just strikes me and I am committed to share it with fellow RG members.

My pond enjoys morning and afternoon sun. Its 3' X 5' with the last 1' as a filter. I have water plants in a corner of the pond. The ranchus are doing well and the growth phenomenal. Because of the effective filter, water is crystal clear. Waste is sucked through a bottom opening and a surface skimmer. I used a mix of coral chips and bio balls for maximum effectiveness.

Without light, be it natural or otherwise, there can never be green water. To cut it short, I believe its the light that is beneficial to the ranchus. The green water is just a by product of the light and play a little role. The algae in the water helps to absorb nitrate but too much of it could causes problems. Thats is why the Jap changes the green water when it gets too green. I advocate that light and not the resultant green water as the sole factor that ranchus grow well in green water.

I am not challenging many experts here, especially those in Ozeki Club. Its just my humble observation. Correct me if you please.

Thank you. smile.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(ranchuking @ Mon 24 May 2004 03:09 PM)
Without light, be it natural or otherwise, there can never be green water. To cut it short, I believe its the light that is beneficial to the ranchus. The green water is just a by product of the light and play a little role. The algae in the water helps to absorb nitrate but too much of it could causes problems. Thats is why the Jap changes the green water when it gets too green. I advocate that light and not the resultant green water as the sole factor that ranchus grow well in green water.

I don't think your post will offend anyone. In fact, it invites discussion on the topic. yes.gif

You didn't tell us how deep is your pond, but judging from its dimension, I assume it's about 2 to 3 feet deep? If it's 2 1/2 ft deep, it holds one tonne of water. Unless you seriously overcrowd your pond, it's not hard for your goldfish to develop nicely.

The end product of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate. Although at low concentration is harmless, prolong exposure to high concentration is said to stunt growth. In your pond, you have plants which takes in nitrate as nutrients, thereby capping your nitrate concentration.

You have, as such, an excellent bio-filtered clear water setup. There seems little need for you to convert it to a green water pond....

... until you probe further... for which I'll leave it to others to enlighten you about what you're missing.
square_guy
What makes you believe that it is the light which benefits your fish and not the green water?

Perhaps you can list out the supporting evidences and scientific facts? and unless you have a control using green water with the same water volume, it would be hard to make a worthwhile comparison.
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(square_guy @ Mon 24 May 2004 04:56 PM)
What makes you believe that it is the light which benefits your fish and not the green water?

RanchuKing does not have green water in his pond.

I believe what he's saying is that green water is "good" because of the effect of sunlight or artificial lighting have on the fishes, and not because of the algae.
square_guy
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 24 May 2004 05:03 PM)
RanchuKing does not have green water in his pond.

I believe what he's saying is that green water is "good" because of the effect of sunlight or artificial lighting have on the fishes, and not because of the algae.

yup. but how to compare?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(ranchuking @ Mon 24 May 2004 03:09 PM)
Without light, be it natural or otherwise, there can never be green water. To cut it short, I believe its the light that is beneficial to the ranchus. The green water is just a by product of the light and play a little role. The algae in the water helps to absorb nitrate but too much of it could causes problems. Thats is why the Jap changes the green water when it gets too green. I advocate that light and not the resultant green water as the sole factor that ranchus grow well in green water.

Alright... I'm too free today and I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

You are getting good growth because your pond is large and has excellent filtration where your plant are keeping your nitrate concentration low.

There's NOTHING seriously wrong with using filtered water if you can keep the water quality good. On the other hand, using Green Water also does not automatically imply your fish will experience good growth! Factors such as stocking level, "space" etc are also involved.

But your line of thot that it is the "light" that is beneficial to fish in green water is wrong.

You must understand a real green water pond has no man-made filtration. It's as if you dig a hole in you garden, fill it up with water, throw in some fishes, and let nature takes care of filtration (among other beneficial things such as nutrients and shading.) How does it do that? Well, the algae takes in ammonia, and produce oxygen. Unfortunately, you have mistaken the algae "... help absorb nitrate... " but in a green water pond there's no nitrate producing BB at all, ie, no BB -> no nitrate -> algae takes in ammonia. Your pond may have low nitrate count now but we also know nitrate accumulates and it's only a matter of time before your nitrate concentration becomes too high. Meanwhile the green water pond is forever nitrate-free.

"Light" is NOT why green water is good. It's the millions of tiny algae that green water keepers go for. The alage also don't take in nitrate because there's no nitrate in green water.

Are your goldfish losing colour? wink.gif
leogon
Wonder why almost no other tropical fish needs green water to be healthy and colourful?
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(leogon @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:01 PM)
Wonder why almost no other tropical fish needs green water to be healthy and colourful?

Could it be... goldfish produces too much waste compared to other ornamental fish that typical bio-filtration can't handle well?
leogon
Koi produce more waste...
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(leogon @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:18 PM)
Koi produce more waste...

To change water by the tonnes every week is too costly for most koi keepers.... biggrin.gif

I don't know if Koi will benefit from green water; they seem huge compared to typical goldfish....
leogon
goldfish keepers tend to have very basic filtration systems compared to Koi ppl. If goldfish ppl have elaborate filtration systems but on a smaller scale, am quite sure the results would be similar to having green water. Visited a goldfish person who is doing this and his goldfish are huge, brightly coloured and healthy and can be seen easilyin the crystal clear water!
His fibreglass ponds are in the garden receiving good ole sunshine.
R U sure green water ain't just hocus pocus...
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(leogon @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:31 PM)
goldfish keepers tend to have very basic filtration systems compared to Koi ppl. If goldfish ppl have elaborate filtration systems but on a smaller scale, am quite sure the results would be similar to having green water. Visited a goldfish person who is doing this and his goldfish are huge, brightly coloured and healthy and can be seen easilyin the crystal clear water!
His fibreglass ponds are in the garden receiving good ole sunshine.
R U sure green water ain't just hocus pocus...

I wonder how small scale can that elaborate filtration system downsize to....

There's no doubt the biggest disadvantage of green water is visibility, which it offers, none.

But we must realize an elaborate filtration system is something difficult and expensive to setup and maintain, for most people.

It is said your goldfish will take care of itself so long as you take care of the water. So, I'm not surprise there exists people with elaborate filtration system and their goldfish are developing well.

To be very frank, the best filtration setup I know of is constant water change if cost is not an factor.

http://www.geocities.com/ybhari/Akim.htm
desireless
QUOTE(leogon @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:31 PM)
goldfish keepers tend to have very basic filtration systems compared to Koi ppl. If goldfish ppl have elaborate filtration systems but on a smaller scale, am quite sure the results would be similar to having green water. Visited a goldfish person who is doing this and his goldfish are huge, brightly coloured and healthy and can be seen easilyin the crystal clear water!
His fibreglass ponds are in the garden receiving good ole sunshine.
R U sure green water ain't just hocus pocus...

green water vs clear water - Each has its own benefits. That's why most Thai breeders use clear water system and most Jap breders use green water. There are many discussion on the benefits of each in this forum so I won't go further into it. If green water is some mickey mouse stunts or "hocus pocus" then I suppose not many ppl will be using it. Not even the Japs will be using it then.

Of course you have to change green water whenever the algae gets very concentrated. No true goldfish hobbyist will tell you they use their green water for more than 3 months without change.
square_guy
actually instead of listing out the benefits of green water, we should try to list out the good points of clear water.

why is clear water in the presence of sunlight good for the fish? guys??
ranchuking
QUOTE(smile.gif @ sad.gif)
How does it do that? Well, the algae takes in ammonia, and produce oxygen. Unfortunately, you have mistaken the algae "... help absorb nitrate... " but in a green water pond there's no nitrate producing BB at all, ie, no BB -> no nitrate -> algae takes in ammonia. Your pond may have low nitrate count now but we also know nitrate accumulates and it's only a matter of time before your nitrate concentration becomes too high. Meanwhile the green water pond is forever nitrate-free.

"Light" is NOT why green water is good. It's the millions of tiny algae that green water keepers go for. The alage also don't take in nitrate because there's no nitrate in green water.

Are your goldfish losing colour? 

Hi Happy Buddha, i am not sure if algae takes in ammonia or not. Frankly this is the first time i heard of it. If it doesnt, then your equation would be all wrong, isnt it? Let me check on that or could anyone help on this algae/ammonia relationship please.

Bacteria are everywhere. All kinds of bacteria. It is wrong to assume that your green water pond has no BB. There is but small quantity and it requires time to build on it. In my filter system,BB growth is accerated and proliferated. As such, the notion that green water pond has no nitrate cannot stand.

Nitrate in my filter pond is not allowed to build up as i have plants and algae along the sides of the pond. Moreover, i add new water everyday to replace pond water loss used for watering of plants. But i take seriously of your view and shall monitor nitrate level. It should read about 40 PPM.

Lastly, my ranchus' colours are ok. There is no decline.

Perphaps algae in green water is an excellant source of food for gfish just like planktons to the whales!

Thank you.
leogon
QUOTE(square_guy @ Mon 24 May 2004 10:00 PM)
actually instead of listing out the benefits of green water, we should try to list out the good points of clear water.

why is clear water in the presence of sunlight good for the fish? guys??

Natural sunlight contains both UV-B and
UV-A rays, which are important to your goldfish's health.

UV-B rays help your goldfish in the production of vitamin D3. Vitamin D3 assists in the absorption of calcium.

UV-A rays are believed to promote mating, increase appetite, and increase activity.
desireless
Thanks for the info.

I suppose UV kills bacteria. Will it kill BB too? unsure.gif I am not sure about ponds. But I have seen some farms using net to void off direct sunlights. Will the UV A and B penetrates?

Thanks in advance for clearing doubts.
square_guy
Ranchuking:
What's the stocking level in your pond right now?

Leogon:
Wonderful info! I believe the fact that sunlight is good for the fish is undisputed. However that being the case, a green water with sunlight would yield the same effect. So what's the disadvantages of green water?

Let me start green water bashing for a change haha biggrin.gif
1. O2 burn! (easiest hehe)
desireless
Disadvantages of green water:
1. O2 burn! (easiest hehe)
2. Can't see the fish for illness (but I think will turn brown if got sick fish)
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(ranchuking @ Mon 24 May 2004 10:11 PM)
Hi Happy Buddha, i am not sure if algae takes in ammonia or not. Frankly this is the first time i heard of it. If it doesnt, then your equation would be all wrong, isnt it? Let me check on that or could anyone help on this algae/ammonia relationship please.

The 1st step in cultivating green water is to make sure there are ammonia, produced by the fish naturally or using other means such as decaying poos. Without ammonia, the real green water simply won't appear with just presence of sunlight, or else we will be see lots of green water at places such as fountains.
QUOTE(ranchuking @ Mon 24 May 2004 10:11 PM)
Bacteria are everywhere. All kinds of bacteria. It is wrong to assume that your green water pond has no BB. There is but small quantity and it requires time to build on it. In my filter system,BB growth is accerated and proliferated. As such, the notion that green water pond has no nitrate cannot stand.

Bacterial are everywhere so long as there's surface for them to colonize. Heck, they could even colonize in minute surface created by those liquid minerals (GeoLiquid). What I'm saying is their population is small and insigificant in a typical green water pond/tub, where the keeper usually make an effort to throughly clean it. Remember... it typically takes BB 4-6 weeks to mature and cycle a new tank....
QUOTE(ranchuking @ Mon 24 May 2004 10:11 PM)
Perphaps algae in green water is an excellant source of food for gfish just like planktons to the whales!

It is. Many factors are involved in grooming a goldfish in green water but one noticable improvements for many bros here using small green water tub is the colour improvements observed. smile.gif
Jos Nana
QUOTE(leogon @ Mon 24 May 2004 08:31 PM)
goldfish keepers tend to have very basic filtration systems compared to Koi ppl. If goldfish ppl have elaborate filtration systems but on a smaller scale, am quite sure the results would be similar to having green water. Visited a goldfish person who is doing this and his goldfish are huge, brightly coloured and healthy and can be seen easilyin the crystal clear water!
His fibreglass ponds are in the garden receiving good ole sunshine.
R U sure green water ain't just hocus pocus...

Er....... Maybe you will like to check with those very serious koi players where they keep their kois.
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