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GF Lover
Does goldfish hibernate?
If so is hibernation important for goldfish?
mountain
Hibernation usually take place when temperature is Below 5 Degree Celsius. You need not feed them when they are hibernating, but in our singapore climate, they cannot do hibernation.

I do not know if its important to them or not. but the purpose most creatures hibernate is to pass the cold period sleeping off as they cannot find food.
olddog
I would like to share my experiences of keeping ranchu in a four season cooler environment.

In the summer the ranchu feed heavily on high protein feeds. The body packs on bulk and they grow very fast.

In the autumn as the water cools and daylight times shorten body growth slows but the most noticeable thing I note is the wen expands massively. The fish appetite is still strong but they eat more feeds like wheat germ.

In the winter the fish stop feeding or consume only small amounts of wheat germ like feeds if the whether is mild. Weaker specimens are killed of in times of hard weather.
Even the strong fish have a hard time and they slim down a lot of the summer weight gain. Daylight hours are short.

In the spring the fish start eating again. As the weather warms they consume as much as they can eat. Male and female swell with egg and sperm. As the day light lengthens after a good warm spell most fish have the biggest spawn of the year.

Summer again and the fish pack on the weight and have smaller spawns every few weeks.
I once had the chance to post a question the masters Mr Mita and Kashino about the differences of the first big spawn compared to that of the later smaller ones. I wondered if either gave an improved incidence of better results.
The reply I received was that progeny from either had equal success in terms of potential. That’s good news for you guys I the tropical climate, because what I think you experience is sort of a perpetual summer from a goldfish point of view.

Forrest (olddog)
GF Lover
I think when the term hibernating is being used, it refers to a state where the fish is no more aware of its surrounding and is still alive. Am I right in this statement. The question here is does goldfish hibernate, and not when they eat less swim less or loose weight etc.?

The next question is does hibernating (assuming that they do hibernate in the first place) help the goldfish in anyway eg. live longer, brighter colour or produce better off-spring etc.
mrchoco
so even if it does, in singapore, what can be done??
air con???
nobnoba
goldfish lover,
i hope i can answer your question.
will u dare to do this experiment??? get a basin, place lots of ice cubes in there with water. aerate it. Put your goldfish in it. leave it for 5 minutes...

BINGO! your goldfish is in Hibernate state... it is sleeping.... unconscious... sometimes with the mouth wide open. touch it, hold it, do anything u want, it wont move... Have you had enough playtime with it yet?
IF yes, then do this, put the sleeping goldfish back to its normal tank (normal temperature of course). In 1 minute, it will WAKE UP again. and everything is normal.

There is no known benefit for this, other than in this state of sleeping, you can transport the fish, Without water at all.
olddog
QUOTE(nobnoba @ Sun 06 Jun 2004 03:28 PM)
will u dare to do this experiment??? get a basin, place lots of ice cubes in there with water. aerate it. Put your goldfish in it. leave it for 5 minutes...

BINGO! your goldfish is in Hibernate state... it is sleeping.... unconscious...

In the situation of your experiment the fish would be in SHOCK not hibernation.

My fish in the winter time are not in hibernation, they are just inactive and not interested in feeding.

Forrest.
domho7
QUOTE(mrchoco @ Sun 06 Jun 2004 10:50 PM)
so even if it does, in singapore, what can be done??
air con???

Get Tok Kong Chiller set to 5deg or lower. good_very.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(olddog @ Sun 06 Jun 2004 06:28 PM)
I would like to share my experiences of keeping ranchu in a four season cooler environment....

Thanks forrest for shaing something most of us don't have a chance to experience.

Am I right to say in autumm the fish are fed wheat gem becoz their slowed metapolism (how you spel ik?) means they can't digest protein rich food as well as wheat gem?

You said in winter the fish slims down a lot of the summer weight gain. I would like to know does it have an adverse effect on their body shape comes spring? You know... some fat persons will have shaggy skins if they lose weight too quickly.... biggrin.gif

QUOTE(olddog @ Sun 06 Jun 2004 06:28 PM)
That’s good news for you guys I the tropical climate, because what I think you experience is sort of a perpetual summer from a goldfish point of view.

I'm not sure if that's really good news for ranchus. Suppose geert gives me one of his Tosai ranchu early this spring, and I raise it here in forever sunny and hot Singapore. Next april, his ranchu in belgium would have rested during winter while mine were active and wearing itself out during the same period. In a sense, my ranchu has lived longer and is "older". When his ranchu becomes a senior Nisai, mine probably would look more like an Oya. Am I making sense?
HappyBuddha
Not as easy as you might think. I wanted to do it. Afterall, a chiller for a 200 litres tank costs around $600-$800 only.

But you really have to think about a few things. Which medicine do I use when the water temperature is 5°C? Although the fishes are dormant and producing less ammonia, how do I make sure the BB is still alive at 5°C? How do I change water if my tap's water is 28°C? What if there's a black-out; my fish will be awaken rudely when the seasons cycled from winter to sping to summer within hours.

Finally, those $600-$800 chiller, assuming they are very reliable, may not be able to chill down to 5°C as they are designed for planted/marine tanks where the expect temperature is around a high 20°C. For I all know, a 5°C capable chiller could cost a bomb.
olddog
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 06:16 AM)
Am I right to say in autumm the fish are fed wheat gem becoz their slowed metapolism (how you spel ik?) means they can't digest protein rich food as well as wheat gem?

Wheat germ and "medicarp" contain natural enzymes that complete digestion when the fishes internal bacteria are inactive due to low winter temperatures.

Its actually quite dangerous to feed some foods at lower temperatures. Certain types of feed can just sit in the inactive digestive tract and rot.

This important point should also be considered when you kill of the digestive tract bacteria when using antibiotic medication. W/G is a good feed to use at times like this.

Forrest (olddog)
olddog
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 06:16 AM)
You said in winter the fish slims down a lot of the summer weight gain.  I would like to know does it have an adverse effect on their body shape comes spring?  You know... some fat persons will have shaggy skins if they lose weight too quickly....  biggrin.gif

Thats certainly one to think about. I have always admired the size and power that the tropical rachu keepers get to pack on their fish. But one has to say that they do seem to differ in ways that are hard to describe. Having a hard winter is bound to alter the development characteristics in some way. For instance I have noticed most Thia fish have very wide scull profile in comparison with Japanese fish.

Geert lives in a four season enviroment. He takes his hobby very seriously and has invested a great deal of time and expense in sophisticated heating equipment. This means he can subject his ranchu to the four season cycle without the Winter extremes. His ranchu in my opinion are indistinguishable to the Japanese lines. I suspect the serious japanese keepers would keep their ranchu under similar circumstances.
yamato38gunkei
I think that Goldfish live longer when they are kept cold during the winter. They will become less fat. I also think they will spawn easier. The breeder can "play" with the temperature.
Ranchu will develop more beautiful when they are kept cold during the winter. Hoods will develop bigger and more beautiful, body will be longer and less fat, tail bones will be stronger, colour will be deeper, scales will be smaller etc.
This is of course my opinion, but based on my own experiences.
I think "hibernation" may not be necessary, but it is better.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
The Matrix
WOoooo !! That's why our neighbouring country unable to "copy" what the Japanese could. Unless they pray for snow to happen in the heated land. heh heh heh ...
GF Lover
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 05:35 PM)
I think that Goldfish live longer when they are kept cold during the winter.  They will become less fat.  I also think they will spawn easier. The breeder can "play" with the temperature.
Ranchu will develop more beautiful when they are kept cold during the winter.  Hoods will develop bigger and more beautiful, body will be longer and less fat, tail bones will be stronger, colour will be deeper, scales will be smaller etc.
This is of course my opinion, but based on my own experiences.
I think "hibernation" may not be necessary, but it is better.

Regards,

Geert Coppens

Thanks Geert and Forrest for your input. This is the kind of input I would like to get not some sarcastic remarks or comments. We are here to learn. The reason I post is that I saw in a Thai breeder's website where he uses a cooler for his ranchu, and likewise I see Japanese breeder uses heater in their ranchu pond. This are topics that will affect out goldfish keeping.

The other thing is that I know of some people keeping their goldfish in heater water in Singapore. Is it necessary?

Am I correct to infer in Forrest's comments that goldfish do not hibernate?

Am I also correct to infer in Geert's comments that cold weather is good for the goldfish well-being etc.
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 07:16 AM)
I'm not sure if that's really good news for ranchus.  Suppose geert gives me one of his Tosai ranchu early this spring, and I raise it here in forever sunny and hot Singapore.  Next april, his ranchu in belgium would have rested during winter while mine were active and wearing itself out during the same period.  In a sense, my ranchu has lived longer and is "older".  When his ranchu becomes a senior Nisai, mine probably would look more like an Oya.  Am I making sense?

What you say makes sense. Ranchu kept in cold water during the winter will look young much longer. They will grow, but they will look younger. And I think this is also one of the advantages. A Ranchu should look young as long as possibe. The longer it stays young, the better it can develop into a big beautiful Ranchu (cfr. Tategoi Nishikigoi !). They will grow slowlier, but once they are big they will be more beautiful and most of the time they will be beautiful for a longer period.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
GF Lover
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 06:17 PM)
What you say makes sense.  Ranchu kept in cold water during the winter will look young much longer.  They will grow, but they will look younger.  And I think this is also one of the advantages.  A Ranchu should look young as long as possibe.  The longer it stays young, the better it can develop into a big beautiful Ranchu (cfr. Tategoi Nishikigoi !).  They will grow slowlier, but once they are big they will be more beautiful and most of the time they will be beautiful for a longer period.

Regards,

Geert Coppens

I heard that in Thailand, the local bred ranchu can only win in Tosai and never in the Nisai or Oya class. These 2 classes are dominated by the Jap imports. Is this true? That is why a ranchu that is claimed to win the All Thai Ranchu Competition is up for sale @ 105 Neo Tiew Crescent at S$3,000/- ( Heard that it is now on offer at S$2,000/-).

The second point is does using a cooler in the warm Singapore/Thai environment just for the purpose of keeping a selected few ranchu makes sense as it will be too costly to keep all our ranchu in cold environment?

Maybe a cheaper alternative is to have a small insulated room with a few stacks of tanks and have it air-conditioned to say 12 degrees etc. Would this help?
The Matrix
QUOTE(yamato38gunkei @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 06:17 PM)
What you say makes sense.  Ranchu kept in cold water during the winter will look young much longer.  They will grow, but they will look younger.  And I think this is also one of the advantages.  A Ranchu should look young as long as possibe.  The longer it stays young, the better it can develop into a big beautiful Ranchu (cfr. Tategoi Nishikigoi !).  They will grow slowlier, but once they are big they will be more beautiful and most of the time they will be beautiful for a longer period.

Regards,

Geert Coppens

Some grow and develop slowly that at tosai, might not be a good specimen. As it aged to nisai onwards, can be a true winner. Worst, some might need to reach the oya stage then turns out solid beauty. That's the problem or rather excitement of keeping top view fish. Guess keeping such ranchu is not just about it's immediate beauty, it's also a test of one's patience and skill.

I think 2003 AJRS Oya East Ozeki is 6 yrs old ? 2000 Nisai 10th, 2001 Oya 5th, 2001 Oya 2nd and finally the top spot. Right Geert ?

wink.gif
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(goldfish Lover @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 11:38 AM)

Maybe a cheaper alternative is to have a small insulated room with a few stacks of tanks and have it air-conditioned to say 12 degrees etc. Would this help?

This may be a good idea !

Regards,

Geert Coppens
yamato38gunkei
QUOTE(The Matrix @ Mon 07 Jun 2004 12:26 PM)
Some grow and develop slowly that at tosai, might not be a good specimen. As it aged to nisai onwards, can be a true winner. Worst, some might need to reach the oya stage then turns out solid beauty. That's the problem or rather excitement of keeping top view fish. Guess keeping such ranchu is not just about it's immediate beauty, it's also a test of one's patience and skill.

All of this is very true ! Ranchu keeping is PATIENCE.

Regards,

Geert Coppens
designers
i glad i found this site. I recently move from the tropical island of guam. So i never have to deal with winter maintainance. Now I am here in seattle washington. I have a pond outside and have some goldfish. Two days ago, the fishes were fine. i have 2 black moores which were doing fine. Last night it was colder than usual. today, when i checked the pond, i saw a black and white panda not moving, looking like dead. I tried to move it but it kept its state. i tried again it finally moved. On the other hand, two of my black moore are doing the same. I tried moving it, but didn't moved at all despite several tries. One floated, and the other sank to the bottom. I do not know how hibernation looks like. Don't they really respond if the hibernate. Are my fish dead? cry.gif cry.gif cry.gif
olddog
QUOTE(designers @ Fri, 23 Sep 2005 3:21 am)
......  Are my fish dead? cry.gif  cry.gif  cry.gif
*





It depends on how soft the linage is. If the stock are all imports from tropical locations then they will never have faced natural climate selection. That’s what you may have. Nothing wrong if you keep them indoors, but don’t expect outdoor hardiness.

So how do you get rock hard stock, answer local breeders?
Take a typical shub breeder in the North of the UK. One guy I know can knock a two foot hole in his pond covered in an inch of ice. His hard as nails line are up checking out if food is on the go ten minutes later!
That’s my point about climatic selection. His fish die if they can’t cope. He only breeds the ones that survive.
However even his hard as nails stock have trouble with abrupt temperature swings. There is a limit to what you can expect.

Forrest.
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(TokyoRanchu @ Sun, 12 Mar 2006 3:03 pm)
Ishikawa san's Ranchu have been my favourites for 14 years now (www.ranchuu.com) and are the only ones to survive this long winter unscathed.  I have a bright orange female and plan on breeding with a Sarassa male with tremendous headgrowth.
*


Is it very difficult for a ranchu to survive through the winter?
TokyoRanchu
Not so difficult for them to survive the winter, but the temperature in Tokyo has been a bit up and down prior tothe end of hibernation, plus these were females that I had conditioned for spawning. Maybe I fed them too much last autumn? Certainly it was only females that were affectedwith this swim bladder problem. All the males are fighting fit.
aquaplantae
so, for we who live in tropical/equatorial region, what's the optimum temperature range for keeping goldfish/rtv (without hibernation period)?
ranchu8
the optimum for me is not to use any (heater or) chiller in tropical climate as long as the water does not get warm
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