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olddog
To help members identify a potentially stunted fish I must confess to using an old trick of the trade I learned from wholesalers from my years as a LFS trader.

The eye to head ratio gives the game away. I used to sell quite a few discus in those days. Price was often gauged by the centimetre. Now take a brood of fish, some will grow big others will be stunted. One strange phenomenon is that the eye size remains equal in each age group relative to age irrispective of other size.

So the trick of the trade is to take the runts from say the four centimetre groups and sell them in the two centimetre section. The customer gets a two centimetre fish at the two centimetre price. This doesn’t sound too bad a deal size for price size ratio, but these fish never develop full potential.

So how do you not get sold a runt. Easy look at the eye to head ratio. Big eye small fish ratio = runt. Same general rule for all types of fish.

Hope there are no old ex customers are reading this!!!!!!! Olddog will have his tail cut off.

Forrest (baddog).
CyberET
if one doesn't have a few fishes to compare, how big is bad?
HappyBuddha
I don't know about discus but my experience with my own stunted goldfishes (yeah... I had a lot!) are:-

1. The finages especially the tails will be larger then a good fish of same body length.

2. In the case of goldfish with headgrowths such as ranchu, oranda, lionhead etc, their headgrowth (and cheeks for ranchus) will be small, less developed and saggy. I'm sorrry I don't know how to describe the sag-ness (rofl2.gif) but it's somewhat like comparing a muscular body of an ironman versus the beer belly of a middle-age man. In this sense, the headgrowth is not as well defined.

Above are in addition to the more obvious sign of the larger then normal eyes (that usually protrude too.)

Otherwise, a stunted fish can swim and behave normally. You can't really observe stunt-ness from their daily behaviour.

Finally, if you had a young fish for a few months and it still is of the same size - stunt! From the Academy we see real life examples of how a normal goldfish should develop over a few months! If your fish doesn't develop likewise... flush! erm... sorry.. I mean... it's stunted.

Stunt fish aren't that bad if you can't tell the diff from a normal one. Afterall, there's no need to up-size its tank/tub. biggrin.gif To put it further, most of us probably will stunt our fish sooner or later unless you can house them in big ponds to let them continue to grow further, isn't it? unsure.gif
GF Lover
I have a friend importing "Soon Hock" (Sand Goby)from Indonesia and Thailand. I noticed that the fish will grow to about 3 to 4 kg with the length proportioned to its height. However when I compare it with a 6 to 7 kg fish, its length does not seems to be much longer but its girth is very much bigger. The fish really look weird. Do you think it is the same with goldfish?
olddog
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 16 Jun 2004 10:03 AM)

most of us probably will stunt our fish sooner or later unless you can house them in big ponds to let them continue to grow further, isn't it?  unsure.gif

I think its important to differentiate between a runt and a stunted fish. Genetically a runt will always be of smaller disposition. Its natures attempt at evolution and survival to have different sized survival options.

However a stunted fish is another subject. A Genetically sound example can by influence of enviromental conditions potential have its future development stunted............. They say that even a short exposure to extreme temperature swings or even one days reduced feed supply can stunt a full good batch of fry. I have information on good authority that these examples never regain full potential!!! sad.gif
olddog
QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed 16 Jun 2004 07:39 AM)
if one doesn't have a few fishes to compare, how big is bad?

By practiced observation it will just feel odd. Its always best to have a few other fish for direct comparison.
olddog
Look at the eye on these typical runt/stunts. Can you get the feel of what I mean by the big eye to head ratio?

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olddog
If you look at the space above and below the eye of these runts, it is the same size as the eye. Go to the Goldfish academy, in the best fish some have twice that space. wink.gif
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 08:23 AM)
I think its important to differentiate between a runt and a stunted fish. Genetically a runt will always be of smaller disposition. Its natures attempt at evolution and survival to have different sized survival options. sad.gif

According to the dictionary, runt "is an undersized animal, especially the smallest animal of a litter." It implies a runt fish is smaller than its sibling from the same spawn. Suppose in a spawn of 3 fishes, a normal, a runt and a stunt, am I right to say at 6 months old, the normal may be 3 inches in length, while both the runt and the stunted may be only 2 inches BUT the runt has normal eyes/body ratio (etc) while the stunt has large eyes/tails (etc)?

If so, when selecting a fish in the LFS, is there a way to tell 6 months old runt from 3 months old normal fish assuming they are of the same size?

QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 09:42 AM)
Look at the eye on these typical runt/stunts. Can you get the feel of what I mean by the big eye to head ratio?

Now I'm confused. Are you saying a runt also has the wrong eye-head ratio? I have the impression a runt is simply a normal fish but smaller sized as if it's a younger fish. unsure.gif

Please correct me and help me understand the difference between runt and stunt. Thanks.
olddog
QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 02:20 AM)



Please correct me and help me understand the difference between runt and stunt.  Thanks.

Stunt and runt both have the same eye ratio.

The only difference is the impediment in one fish was genetic and enviromently induced in the other. Remember the runt was always going to be impeded.

However had the stunted fish not been exposed to the negative enviroment its eye ratio would then not been affected.

Still confussed unsure.gif Just remember "big eye ratio = s**t fish potential.
olddog
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 02:32 AM)


Still confussed unsure.gif  Just remember "big eye ratio = s**t fish potential.

I have delivered a confusing answer to that statement. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand if I had said a stunt is just an enviromentaly induced runt.

Both the same effect, just two different causes.

Sorry to confuse
Forrest (olddrunt)
olddog
how about an example of a strunt just to add to the confusion!

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jhansolo
Wow! that look like a dragon eye
HappyBuddha
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 10:41 AM)
I have delivered a confusing answer to that statement. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand if I had said a stunt is just an enviromentaly induced runt.

Both the same effect,  just two different causes.

Gotcha now!

I had the impression it's okay to have a runt... much like... in primary school you probably had classmates who are short and small compared to your goodself. They're just born that way and in no way shall we cull them. biggrin.gif
snowfire
Is my little baby stunted? I thought he is one year old.Thanks

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Hamad
How big is he? I mean in cm or inches?

From what I understand a stunted fish usually have large eyes and fins that do not look proportioned with the rest of the body, sometimes the body shape also looks deformed in extreme cases.
snowfire
9cm from head and tail, about this picture's size.
kencheng
My guess - Don't look stunted to me. But also probably not 1 year old.

Body and hump not developed yet. Also the size and shape of the fin looks more like a 6 month old ryukin. Would be about right for 3 inch.

Got prize or not if I guess correct ? hehehe
snowfire
Thanks for your reply. I want to give your delicious food but you are too far and I don't know the answer. He has breeding mark on his fins and chase another female and makes me guess one year old.
Is it right?
Hamad
I totally agree with Kencheng, judging the size and how it looks in the picture it doesn't look stunted. It would be good if you keep track of the size within the next month or so and see if it grows or not.

Maintain good food [I give up to four meals between 8am to 4pm] and of course water changes and enough space, it should grow. Good luck and keep us updated! biggrin.gif
kencheng
Snowfire - from experience - some baby goldfish 6 months already ready to CHIONG (breed) already!

Maybe someone with more breeding experience can comment?
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(snowfire @ Sat, 25 Mar 2006 3:08 pm)
Thanks for your reply. I want to give your delicious food but you are too far and I don't know the answer. He has breeding mark on his fins and chase another female and makes me guess one year old.
Is it right?
*


In Singapore, some goldfish can spawn when they are 5 to 6 months old. Even Japanese ranchu imported into Singapore from Japan do spawn that early. Only problem is fries are too small and has lots of defects.

BTW the fish shown is beautiful without obvious defects which is a plus point.
snowfire
So my fish is younger . From Now on , I will record their length.
desireless
QUOTE(olddog @ Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:26 am)
how about an example of a strunt just to add to the confusion!


*


This is a follow-up to Forrest's explanation to Eye Ratio.... Sorry that the server lost this image.

This is the comparison between a normal and stunted ranchu (thanks Tan for contributing his fish as model biggrin.gif):
(Notice the fins would be out of proportion too)
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The pupil (black area) usually give a very big hint to the stuntedness.

But contrary to what I have read from other places, you can't tell if a fish is potentially stunted. Once you see a fish stunted, it is already too late to rectify. But this illustration would be useful to prevent you from buying stunted fish though ;)
d_golem
Lol nice photoshop job ;)
awrieger
Hello, my first post. A very informative thread, thank you!

So a runt is genetic? Then that trait could be passed on to offspring and two runts would produce more runts? Would it not be commercially viable to actually value this trait rather than cull it and so produce a 'dwarf' line of goldfish?

I'm thinking that given the restriction of space and tendency to overstock, a miniature type of goldfish could be very successful. Like miniature dog breeds for people who live in small apartments, miniature goldfish would be more preferable to the larger ones for many people. And easier to look after. Also, larger eyes make for more cuteness and appeal! ;)

Or is the runt's reproductive ability also runted and so this is not possible? ;)
CP
QUOTE(awrieger @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 3:26 am)
So a runt is genetic? Then that trait could be passed on to offspring and two runts would produce more runts?
*


I dont think so. I am of the opinion that offsprings of two runts can produce a normal goldfish.


QUOTE(awrieger @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 3:26 am)
Would it not be commercially viable to actually value this trait rather than cull it and so produce a 'dwarf' line of goldfish? ......
...... Like miniature dog breeds for people who live in small apartments, miniature goldfish would be more preferable to the larger ones for many people.
*


Haha,as far as I know, goldfish hobbyists are looking for large ones, given the choice.
But, given a choice, I would prefer a mini bull terrier over a bull terrier.
CP
QUOTE(desireless @ Fri, 21 Apr 2006 2:20 pm)
This is the comparison between a normal and stunted ranchu (thanks Tan for contributing his fish as model biggrin.gif):
(Notice the fins would be out of proportion too)

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Hey, both pics are of the same fish.

So is this fish a runt in the first place or has it been stunted by Ah Tan? rolleyes.gif
goldrush
QUOTE(CP @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 1:13 pm)
Hey, both pics are of the same fish.

So is this fish a runt in the first place or has it been stunted by Ah Tan? rolleyes.gif
*




If Ah Tan's hand remain the same in both photo then the body did not grow and only its eyes have enlarged laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
white horse T1
QUOTE(CP @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 1:13 pm)
Hey, both pics are of the same fish.

So is this fish a runt in the first place or has it been stunted by Ah Tan? rolleyes.gif
*



rafflesgold already pay me an undisclosed sum for copyright and using my fish as model. moderator can use the picture freely to do any thing. biggrin.gif

u think everyday rafflesgold forum anyhow select model fish ah..... tongue.gif
The Matrix
QUOTE(goldrush @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 2:30 pm)
If Ah Tan's hand remain the same in both photo then the body did not grow and only its eyes have enlarged laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif
*


maybe ah tan stun liao. hand also remain the same. biggrin.gif
Ranchu Lover
QUOTE(goldrush @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 2:30 pm)
If Ah Tan's hand remain the same in both photo then the body did not grow and only its eyes have enlarged laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif
*


Tail also grows bigger.
Wessie
That intersting. I hate stunted fish. When I was younger my fish was overstocked 8 Oranda didnt grow any inch for 2 years mad.gif

Now I learn lesson as rule 1 fish to 10 gallons water smile.gif)

I like 75 gallons or 90 gallons. I will check at the shop to see what size like. yes.gif

I know bigger tank mean lot of work. Anyway I fell in love with Ranchu they look cute. I might have 3 tank maybe hysterical.gif

QUOTE(Ranchu Lover @ Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:56 pm) *

Tail also grows bigger.


Yes you are correct. I hate stunted ! mad.gif

I wonder what rule like how many fish Oranda or Ranchu limited for 75 g and 90g ?
vakratunda
There are Bonsai Trees. So why can't we have Bonsai GoldFish? I have never bred GoldFish, but I think it is spiritually inhumane to cull. If I did breed, I think I would let the ones that I would not keep go free in a lake.
Skarkbait&Rockstar
I have had them for over a year now. First they were in a 2.5 gallon, then 10 gallon, and now 20 gallon long.

They have gained some size when I compare them to the 2.5 gallon tank but I don't know, I feel like they should have gained much more in size.

I assume both are females, around 6 months ago one or both laid eggs. rusure.gif

Thanks hi.gif

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Christo7
hi is this a stunted fish? and how old do you think it is?

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closeup of eye and tail

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repsective of tank

thanks
chris

p.s. im not planning on going to any goldfish shows with this just to let you know, dont judge against perfect specimen
xchairity_casex
im quite intrested in reading this thread becuase i really think there is an exception to this rule also known as my oranda.
i got my oranda from someone who had him in a bowl bought from wally world for buck 98. all i had was a 20 gallon put him in then overstocked it like mad (this was my first fish tank) wasnt untill 3 years alter i elarned about how to properly care for goldies by that time my oranda was already about 3 inches got an 80 gallon tank for him then read about stunted fish freaked out ebcuase this is what he looked like
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but after moving him into the 80 gallon for a year he grew 2 more inches
and this is exaclty what he looked like just before he died alst week exactly the same but he was in fact growing quite nicely
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this fish had the biggest eyes ide ever seen on a goldfish before plus his fins were very long
but i assure you he was growing very quickly and im posative had he not died of dropsy he would have gotten much much larger
Capt. Dave
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Do these fish look stunted?
CP
Unfortunately, yes. My hunch is that the white fish will be larger than the red in time to come.
rekoi
is this stunted? hmm?---guestimate 2.75inches body size w/o tail

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CP
Looks OK.......
rekoi
QUOTE(CP @ Sat, 06 Oct 2012 9:06 am) *

Looks OK.......


thank you mod... relieved sweatingbullets.gif
Goldieguy
I feel its genetics plus the enviroment and feed rates .

Genetics aside ....if you are growing goldfish in a small tank with little filtration and low feed rates expect a small stunted fish .

My 4 are all cheapo fancy goldfish in 240 ltrs fed 5 times a day and heated to 20 degs c .

Doubled in size and now at 4 " from 2 " in a few months .
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