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> Stunted Fish Identification
olddog
post Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:57 pm
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To help members identify a potentially stunted fish I must confess to using an old trick of the trade I learned from wholesalers from my years as a LFS trader.

The eye to head ratio gives the game away. I used to sell quite a few discus in those days. Price was often gauged by the centimetre. Now take a brood of fish, some will grow big others will be stunted. One strange phenomenon is that the eye size remains equal in each age group relative to age irrispective of other size.

So the trick of the trade is to take the runts from say the four centimetre groups and sell them in the two centimetre section. The customer gets a two centimetre fish at the two centimetre price. This doesn’t sound too bad a deal size for price size ratio, but these fish never develop full potential.

So how do you not get sold a runt. Easy look at the eye to head ratio. Big eye small fish ratio = runt. Same general rule for all types of fish.

Hope there are no old ex customers are reading this!!!!!!! Olddog will have his tail cut off.

Forrest (baddog).
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CyberET
post Wed, 16 Jun 2004 3:39 pm
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if one doesn't have a few fishes to compare, how big is bad?
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HappyBuddha
post Wed, 16 Jun 2004 6:03 pm
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I don't know about discus but my experience with my own stunted goldfishes (yeah... I had a lot!) are:-

1. The finages especially the tails will be larger then a good fish of same body length.

2. In the case of goldfish with headgrowths such as ranchu, oranda, lionhead etc, their headgrowth (and cheeks for ranchus) will be small, less developed and saggy. I'm sorrry I don't know how to describe the sag-ness (rofl2.gif) but it's somewhat like comparing a muscular body of an ironman versus the beer belly of a middle-age man. In this sense, the headgrowth is not as well defined.

Above are in addition to the more obvious sign of the larger then normal eyes (that usually protrude too.)

Otherwise, a stunted fish can swim and behave normally. You can't really observe stunt-ness from their daily behaviour.

Finally, if you had a young fish for a few months and it still is of the same size - stunt! From the Academy we see real life examples of how a normal goldfish should develop over a few months! If your fish doesn't develop likewise... flush! erm... sorry.. I mean... it's stunted.

Stunt fish aren't that bad if you can't tell the diff from a normal one. Afterall, there's no need to up-size its tank/tub. biggrin.gif To put it further, most of us probably will stunt our fish sooner or later unless you can house them in big ponds to let them continue to grow further, isn't it? unsure.gif
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GF Lover
post Wed, 16 Jun 2004 7:20 pm
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I have a friend importing "Soon Hock" (Sand Goby)from Indonesia and Thailand. I noticed that the fish will grow to about 3 to 4 kg with the length proportioned to its height. However when I compare it with a 6 to 7 kg fish, its length does not seems to be much longer but its girth is very much bigger. The fish really look weird. Do you think it is the same with goldfish?
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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 8:24 am
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QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Wed 16 Jun 2004 10:03 AM)

most of us probably will stunt our fish sooner or later unless you can house them in big ponds to let them continue to grow further, isn't it?  unsure.gif

I think its important to differentiate between a runt and a stunted fish. Genetically a runt will always be of smaller disposition. Its natures attempt at evolution and survival to have different sized survival options.

However a stunted fish is another subject. A Genetically sound example can by influence of enviromental conditions potential have its future development stunted............. They say that even a short exposure to extreme temperature swings or even one days reduced feed supply can stunt a full good batch of fry. I have information on good authority that these examples never regain full potential!!! sad.gif
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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 8:28 am
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QUOTE(CyberET @ Wed 16 Jun 2004 07:39 AM)
if one doesn't have a few fishes to compare, how big is bad?

By practiced observation it will just feel odd. Its always best to have a few other fish for direct comparison.
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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 9:42 am
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Look at the eye on these typical runt/stunts. Can you get the feel of what I mean by the big eye to head ratio?

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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:12 am
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If you look at the space above and below the eye of these runts, it is the same size as the eye. Go to the Goldfish academy, in the best fish some have twice that space. wink.gif
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HappyBuddha
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:20 am
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QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 08:23 AM)
I think its important to differentiate between a runt and a stunted fish. Genetically a runt will always be of smaller disposition. Its natures attempt at evolution and survival to have different sized survival options. sad.gif

According to the dictionary, runt "is an undersized animal, especially the smallest animal of a litter." It implies a runt fish is smaller than its sibling from the same spawn. Suppose in a spawn of 3 fishes, a normal, a runt and a stunt, am I right to say at 6 months old, the normal may be 3 inches in length, while both the runt and the stunted may be only 2 inches BUT the runt has normal eyes/body ratio (etc) while the stunt has large eyes/tails (etc)?

If so, when selecting a fish in the LFS, is there a way to tell 6 months old runt from 3 months old normal fish assuming they are of the same size?

QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 09:42 AM)
Look at the eye on these typical runt/stunts. Can you get the feel of what I mean by the big eye to head ratio?

Now I'm confused. Are you saying a runt also has the wrong eye-head ratio? I have the impression a runt is simply a normal fish but smaller sized as if it's a younger fish. unsure.gif

Please correct me and help me understand the difference between runt and stunt. Thanks.
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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:33 am
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QUOTE(HappyBuddha @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 02:20 AM)



Please correct me and help me understand the difference between runt and stunt.  Thanks.

Stunt and runt both have the same eye ratio.

The only difference is the impediment in one fish was genetic and enviromently induced in the other. Remember the runt was always going to be impeded.

However had the stunted fish not been exposed to the negative enviroment its eye ratio would then not been affected.

Still confussed unsure.gif Just remember "big eye ratio = s**t fish potential.
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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:41 am
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QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 02:32 AM)


Still confussed unsure.gif  Just remember "big eye ratio = s**t fish potential.

I have delivered a confusing answer to that statement. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand if I had said a stunt is just an enviromentaly induced runt.

Both the same effect, just two different causes.

Sorry to confuse
Forrest (olddrunt)
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olddog
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:26 am
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how about an example of a strunt just to add to the confusion!

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jhansolo
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:29 am
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Wow! that look like a dragon eye
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HappyBuddha
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 3:36 pm
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QUOTE(olddog @ Thu 17 Jun 2004 10:41 AM)
I have delivered a confusing answer to that statement. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand if I had said a stunt is just an enviromentaly induced runt.

Both the same effect,  just two different causes.

Gotcha now!

I had the impression it's okay to have a runt... much like... in primary school you probably had classmates who are short and small compared to your goodself. They're just born that way and in no way shall we cull them. biggrin.gif
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snowfire
post Sat, 25 Mar 2006 2:00 am
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Is my little baby stunted? I thought he is one year old.Thanks

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